Even if you think what you would say is obvious, please add. This is genuinely something I think makes sense regarding local bus routes given the longevity of light rail and how infrequently routes change, but I also suffer from confirmation bias, so I’m hoping for reasons this would be a terrible idea but obviously would prefer reasons it would be an even more amazing idea than I thought.
Probably biassed as I’m a bus driver but the city I’m in has a tram and it’s fantastic until one gets blocked or broken. Benefit of busses is they can detour if needed, and if one breaks it doesn’t (always) block the entire route
edit: extra annoying when they break down and I have to carry a tram load of passengers on one double decker bus
Biggest drawback for anything on rails really, it works either really well or not at all. I think it is still worth it, but I am also incredibly biased towards trains.
It’s also very easy to reconfigure bus routes, just slap some new paint on the road.
EV buses are not that easy to “configure” though
Busses have their uses. Lots of commentor have mentioned the flexibility in setting up / changing routes. But there’s also the flexibility in sizes. You can start a line with a large van or small mini bus and your only overhead is the driver. From there you can scale that up according to demand up to frequently run articulated busses. Meanwhile your minimum investment for tram includes at the very least a not inexpensive track installation.
Don’t get me wrong. If you have the passenger volume that investment definitely pays off. But I don’t like this unnecessary competition between two modes of transport that can be very complimentary to each other and are both better than individual cars.
It would mean that, for very high volume and consolidated bus routes where adding new busses would actually start to contribute to congestion, a city can then decide upon “upgrading” the entire line to a tram. Of course this means changing the infrastructure and lane structure on the involved streets and possibly the layout of the stations
I’m not suggesting light railway for new routes, but to replace the old routes that are fleshed out already.
When did we stop calling them trams?
Light rail/trams are better especially for avenues etc. But busses are more flexible, and you usually need a combination of both for best results
This.
I think of buses as the caterpillar to a tram’s butterfly.
You can start with a comprehensive bus network, and as a particular route stabilizes and the bus starts struggling to meet throughput needs, that is an indicator that a tram may be worthwhile.
Starting w/ a tram line is a pretty big financial bet that it will be useful/needed, as once you build it, you’re locked-in to that specific route.
Buses for longer journeys make sense. We have a bunch of buses in London that run from the city centre out towards the green belt. Buses for those especially long journeys makes sense.
Why not just build a train for long journies? Cheaper over time, more capacity, and reduces road dependency.
Yes but it makes economic sense only on the routes with top demand that pass through the center or CBDs or other high traffic areas
There’s pros and cons of buses vs trams.
The pros that I’d slate for trams do include a better ride, more throughput (carries more people), wholly electric, are more durable than busses, and very quiet in general. People in this thread have noted most of these already, but the one that I feel is very overlooked is that they’re a commitment by the city along their routes. Many people will note that busses have advantages because their routes are easier to change. While true, I feel it’s actually worth considering that this is also a negative from the perspective of anyone who wants to invest in property that relies upon the bus route. If you can’t trust that the city won’t just up and move the bus stop away from your shop or apartment complex, you’ll be more reluctant to invest in the location. Trams are indeed much harder to change, but that’s actually a good thing from the perspective of investors. If I’m going to invest millions of dollars in an apartment complex, would I rather do it next to a bus stop that might not be there next year, or a tram stop that’s really hard to move away?
Another advantage is how well the tram integrates with pedestrians. Busses are only as accurate as the driver. As a pedestrian, I have to pay attention to every bus just as I would cars on the road. They’re dangerous to be around. Trams are much more predictable (see: rails) so they can be used in/around public squares, markets, and along walkways with more safety for the people walking nearby. The rails themselves also show you where the transit is. Bus routes are invisible except for the stops and when you see the busses go by. When I’m walking in a city that has railed transit, I love seeing the rails because I know that I likely follow them to the next stop, and that by stops there will be shops, stores, and interesting places. They’re a guide to the best places in the city even if I can’t see the tram at that exact moment.
Trams are also usually larger inside. There’s more room for wheelchairs, bicycles, and other mobility aids. They’re a better conveyance for people who need the room. Those same people also need to pick where they live carefully so that their transit won’t up and change on them. Having the bus stop move a block away could be a huge hurdle for their daily mobility needs.
Railed transit provides a permanency and a more equitable transit solution for a city. It’s not the right solution in every instance, but as a city grows it needs to start investing in railed transit. Those rails provide the bones of where growth will centralize around giving the city focus and then identity as neighborhoods grow around tram/light rail stops. There’s a power to railed transit that busses just don’t provide in their stability, visibility, and statement of commitment to the longevity that a city should be investing in.
Also, look up grassy tram lines. That’s peak urbanism!
I mostly agree with you that trams are generally better, but we need to point out that bus stations are not placed randomly on the map. If an appartment complex gets build somewhere, a bus station will also appear next to it, probably faster than rail transport (assuming whichever organism in charge is competent, and that there is discussion between them and the users). Busses are better suited places with less trafic and fast to put in place. Trams are good long term and better for pedestrians. (and a lot cooler and more comforable)
in kansas city they funded light rail with property taxes and the increase in property value offset the tax and then some
I’d never heard of grassy tramlines, I love them! I’ve never seen any anywhere, and I’ve been all over Europe, they are either quite rare, or I haven’t been paying attention.
We’ve even got them in Finland and we only have two cities with a tram network. Otherwise I’ve seen them a lot in Germany and newer systems tend to have them more often than older ones.
With the caveat that this only applies to my city, San Francisco… I prefer buses. SF horribly mismanages its “trams”* where they run at ground level through the streets. They must follow all stop signs and traffic rules. They don’t even get signal priority. So it’s a quite jarring experience to get into a train underground, exit the tunnel to the street, and begin stopping every block and waiting at red lights.
Fact of the matter is that, if you’re going to be treated like a car, it’s better to be more maneuverable as a bus. Buses can avoid double parked cars, and have a fighting chance of squeezing through a gridlocked intersection. With a bus lane, they can use it but they don’t have to, where’s trams are trapped in a traffic lane (frequently the centermost lane) while idiots make (frequently illegal) left turns.
* Muni light rail - K, J, L, M, N, T, F
While this is a point about implementation/regulation, and not about trams in general, it is an important point to make.
In my city of Hamburg, Germany, Iearned to avoid buses. Too often they get slowed down by traffic jams, which makes them late and unreliable.
Dedicated bus lanes, separated from cars, would solve the problem. Until they don’t have that, the U-Bahn and S-Bahn (which run on rails separated from traffic, underground or above street level) are my clear favorites.
A city which prioritizes public transit, would/could give street level trams priority at traffic lights, and maybe even disallow cars from using the tracks as a normal lane.
This is the problem with all trams/streetcars, by definition they run at street level. If anything sf’s are a bit better since they have underground sections. They don’t have an advantage of speed, that can only be gained by getting right of way which is far more expensive and then it’s not really a good comparison to a bus. The main advantage of trams are comfort, capacity and long term cost. Whether that trumps buses flexibility is up to debate.
Street level is not the same thing as “among car traffic”. For instance, there’s a stretch of the N-Judah in SF between Embarcadero and 4th & King which is on street level, but in fact it is in an entirely separate right of way, where it is illegal for cars to drive. And unlike other places in SF where it’s illegal for cars to be (like bike lanes, bus lanes, Market st), people actually respect that. So it’s entirely possible to avoid the private car right of way. If you can avoid intermingling with cars, and you get signal priority, then you’ll go faster than cars, because you’re not stuck in traffic and you don’t need to wait for the lights.
The issue is that in this segment, I haven’t noticed much in the way of signal priority. The N, which is far more important than any private car on those intersections, has to wait when it really should just sail through intersections, because the signals knew the N was coming and changed ahead of time.
I know that this can be achieved more or less with BRT, but it seems absolutely silly to put in the rails without having a dedicated right of way, and yet that’s what the majority of SF’s above-ground light rail is. IMO, if there’s light rail on the street, either it should be car free, or the railway should have curbs surrounding it to prevent intrusion from cars. Full stop.
I’m surprised nobody pointed out that tyres are extremely polluting:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-showCityNerd posted a really good video on this topic a few months ago. https://youtu.be/H6UD9h3hEdk
His videos are primarily US-focused, but I believe this one applies for pretty much any country.
Sorry it took me so long to watch this. He essentially feels that trams are just glorified buses and identified issues with mixed traffic routes but modern teams and light railway are capable of leaving their tracks to circumvent obstacles.
My pet conspiracy theory is that most bus routes are a false compromise sold to voters.
Another problem with light rail would be mountains. Trains don’t like those. On the other hand, cable-cars and cog railway exists and seem to be viable solutions. The city of Lyon even has both and since the cog railway starts on a flat terrain, it is able to switch between both.
Trams are the cosiest things to sit in. I enjoy being half asleep in the morning and just look at all the people being busy. Wish my town had some more grassy lines, but they don’t lack on where you can go.
(edit: I want to add that I am also happy with the buses here, don’t think there is a reason to be either or and rather focus on reducing cars in town and in its suburbs. Obviously easier to do for smaller towns).
Light rail is infinitely more expensive to construct and it only takes one delay/accident and all subsequent trains after cause a log jam…vs a bus which can route around it.
A better solution uses corridors dedicated to buses that are electric powered.
Something like this was done in Colombia with these routes being connected by ground hubs, similar to subway stations.
This is a common misbelief. Trams and light rail usually have points where the units can go around if one unit has derailed, unless the unit has tipped over, which in itself is very very rare. Good planning is crucial. “A better solution uses corridors dedicated to buses that are electric powered.” Nope, nope, nope. You have to present arguments to this claim, maybe then I can be bothered to counterargument such nonsense.
That’s like saying a ship is more expensive than a car. It depends.
A tram is not „infinitely“ (what absurd statement is that anyway) more expensive than a bus.
Construction cost is not everything, and they’re not even that much higher, you also need to consider service life (much longer with trains), energy cost per passenger mile (much lower with trains thanks to the lower resistance), etc.
What is best is always depending on the specific circumstances.
The biggest limitation of buses is capacity, and a highly used tram is cheaper per passenger mile than a bus. Try replacing the S-Bahn in Berlin with BRT, see how far that gets you. You’d probably need to bulldoze a new highway… speaking of which:
Germany is actually hellbent on building a highway right through its capital Berlin, which currently clocks in at 700 milion € for 3.2 km. I expect the whole thing to end at ~2 bn € for ~7 km.
So I think the costs of public transport are really not the issue people should be focusing on.
Electric busses are actually a lot more complex logistically than electric trains. With a train, you just need a bunch of big-ass transformers and overhead wires. Expensive to install, but very reliable and relatively low maintenance over many years.
Batteries on the other hand are heavy, relatively fragile, degrade quickly, and very expensive. With a 100KWh EV, about 1/3 of the total cost is the battery, so it would likewise increase the cost of a bus.
Charging is another problem, instead of the whole system using energy real-time, you now need a distribution system that can take hundreds of busses at night and charge them all back up, requiring a massive amount of power in a somewhat short time. While it’s nice that energy is generally cheaper at night, you still need the infrastructure that can take that load.
So, it’s not to say that there’s no place for them, just that our main focus needs to be on rail in most places. There are lots of low-density places with cheap power and temperate weather that absolutely need BEV busses, but a lot more with challenging weather, older grids, and medium density that are a better fit for rail.
Ah yes, and we can put those corridors underground in a big circle.
Like some kind of hyper-loop!
Add to all these reasons that roadworks are easily circumvented with a bus.
Can’t light rail leave it’s tracks temporarily or am I thinking of another form of transport.
A train, which a light rail is, can not leave its tracks.
Well sure it can, the issue is getting back to it!
Depends on the road layout; if it’s a long straight road then light railway makes sense. It’s less maintenance, easier to operate, can move unhindered because it doesn’t get stuck in traffic (edit: provided they don’t share the roads).
For spaghetti road layouts though, I don’t see the benefit, but I could be wrong since I’m no expert.
There is no reason rail has to be constrained to the road network. Eminent Domain is literally for things like this.
