I sort of liked GTK back in the day when it was still the Gimp Tool Kit first and foremost. When it was 1999 and your other choices were a broken Lesstif, an early C++ centric Qt, clumsy Tk, and pre-Cambrian Xaw, it was nice to have something full-featured and tasteful.
Now I hesitate to pull in a GTK app because it won’t theme right (I want to use the same bitmap fonts I liked in 1999, but apparently Pango stopped supporting them) and runs the risk of convincing the package manager to dump several gigs of GNOME crud on my drive.
I gather even the GIMP itself no longer tracks current GTK-- it’s become solely in service to GNOME and their absurd UI whims (* * * * client side decorations)
client side decorations
Ah yes, the developers’ dumping ground. App menus bad, five miscellaneous buttons (and also a menu) good and m i n i m a l.
Oh my god I hate client side decorations.
I used to love GNOME 2, but now I’ve jumped ship to KDE and I love it.
Same deal here, with years of Xfce and MATE in between. (And a couple of months of GNOME 3, so I could know for sure it wasn’t for me.)
Minimal is 7 menus
I’m with you - I was kind of happy with GNOME2 back in the day, but the forecoming of what was going to be GNOME3 made me jump out that ship and became a refugee in KDE.
It’s a shame the Linux ports of Chrome and Firefox are written in GTK because of the reasons you mentioned. Once I heard some guy at GNOME talking about porting Firefox directly to Wayland - which sounds kind of bollocks for a pedestrian like me - but if it’s possible, I hope that they succeed and Firefox can become a toolkit-agnostic web browser.
But at the same time I wonder about projects like Xfce and if they ever decide to move away from GTK, like LXDE did. I mean, a fusion between Xfce and Enlightenment would be awesome.
GNOME always seemed to be a solution chasing a problem, particularly once the licensing fears for Qt/KDE were settled.
But now it’s one of the things Red Hat seems to impose on the world. Feels like everything controversial comes out of them or Canonical. I guess they have the commercial cash to prop up things like GNOME and Wayland and systemd and snaps until they gain traction, while more community-focused products can’t break the world for no reason.
porting Firefox directly to Wayland
I’m trying to understand what that even means.
Gnome is written by, just hear me out, Malus workers in their offtime who got screamed at by Steve Jobs for misplacing a button by a few pixels. They wanted to write a Mac interface without some tech dictator breathing down their neck, but with the same philosophy of “we know what’s best for the users”.
Gnome is good as it doesn’t had a lot of complexity and looks nice out of the box.
I do wish the gnome devs would be a little more flexible. However, I also wish KDE had a dumb mode that disables the customization. Xfce4 has a kiosk mode
So, here’s a thought. Instead of removing customization, people just, you know, not customize things. It’s like going into the Settings page, except instead of doing that, you don’t do that.
Problem solved.
You underestimate my power, I see a Settings menu, and instantly enter a fugue state, 30 minutes pass and I suddenly come back to myself, my desktop environment looks entirely different, the windows are wobbly, and GTK window theming is broken.
I need help
Here’s my complete KDE post-install configuration procedure: go into Settings, search for “Numlock” and change it to “on at boot”. It used to include changing Single Click - selects files, but that’s the default now, as natural law would demand.
It is still overly complicated. Gnome is simple, stable and mostly unchanging. If also can force settings with dconf.
I would posit to you that it is, in fact, the perfect amount of complicated. If I want to change something, I don’t have to program and/or install an extension that will get blown up on the next release of the desktop environment because of the lack of fucks that Gnome gives for people that build extensions for it.
I will concede that it would nice to have dconf. But considering the amount of stuff that can be configured in stock Plasma, that might take a lot more than the 3 settings that Gnome allows you to change.
You shouldn’t be using gnome if you are wanting to make major changes. That’s the whole point. If you like to tweak things and customize KDE is great and I respect that. However, not everyone wants that especially not on a machine that is for work.
They wanted to write a Mac interface
macOS windows have minimize buttons and a dock that’s not just visible when opening a launcher.
From your little comment we can tell that YOU think you know what’s best for the user :) Keep it up.
Ah, a gnome lover trying to use reverse psychology. Cute.
Why would you care? Are you that insecure?
Yep, sounds like a Gnome-lover trying to gaslight too. Least you could do is be a little less predictable and make this more fun to shit on Gnome.
Meh, /g/ on 4chan which is where this post is from, is mostly bitter racists angry that can’t pelt everyone with racial and homophobic slurs in the community. They literally think banning hate speech in CoCs is akin to brutal Stalinist oppression.
Isn’t this just an ad hominem? You aren’t disagreeing with the point, just saying you dislike the creed that said it.
True. But still /g/ is pretty tame and people mostly discuss tech stuff like this post. Now /b/, /pol/ and /int/ are another matter.
Dismissing a post because of the platform it is posted on sounds pretty racist to me. Judge them not by the color of the greentext but the content of the meme. Or, something like that.
You uh… you haven’t been on 4chan… have you?
The point is, you don’t have to be. Appreciate the meme if its good. You don’t want to demote the meme because platform is bad
I don’t think I hate something as much as I hate client side decorations, “minimal” interfaces and the whole GNOME 3+ theming.
They still need funding
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I’m sorry but this is bullshit. Very few people complain about the speed with which things get fixed. I think that everyone understands that things take a while given the nature of the project. But the attitude is still annoying to the point people are turned away from the project entirely by those devs. They gatekeep broken functionality and refuse to help users. It has nothing to do with pay. If it did, they wouldn’t do those things either, they’d just step away.
Any developer with such an attitude should step away. And by the way, doctors do volunteer work too and they would absolutely be held responsible for bad medical advice regardless if the work was paid or not
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my last interaction with that community, the one which broke the proverbial camel’s back was when i reported a bug in the notifications display. Basically, if a new notification arrived while the previous one was displayed, it would get queued but not displayed. When a new notification appeared after that, the queued one would be displayed instead of the new one. After this, the notifications would become out of sync. A notification from one hour ago would show up instead of the current notification which would not be displayed until a new one would appear.
To this I got the following responses:
-
To upgrade to the latest version (rather than the one shipped with my distribution) - huge waste of time and caused instability in my system and didn’t solve the issue. (Oh, and when I said that my system is unstable, the dev told me i should have used a “test computer”, obviously)
-
Then another person described how the thing is implemented and how this might happen with no solution offered. When I asked if this could be changed to always show the latest notification at least, that person told me that it wouldn’t make sense to not display notifications in order and closed the bug report as not a bug.
And that was it. One person decided that it makes more sense to get a display of a stale message to which i probably replied to more than an hour ago instead of a display of a message that my cpu is overheating right now . The issue is closed.
(Oh, and when I said that my system is unstable, the dev told me i should have used a “test computer”, obviously)
Hey, everybody, get a load of this guy. Imagine not running a separate staging computer and custom DevOps systems for your home PC.
/s, just in case you think I’m a Gnome dev.
I mean, does OP not understand that upgrading their desktop environment outside the distro packages was risky? I feel like minimal software experience tells you that… A VM would’ve made perfect sense there
can you explain how testing this on a VM would have helped me with my issue on my day to day computer? Let’s say that the problem was solved in the latest release, what good would a VM do? Maybe i didn’t make myself clear, the message was not an attempt at debugging the situation. That dev just told me that the team is not interested in bugs reported on older versions and I should just upgrade.
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It could have helped you by giving you the knowledge of where the issue was. If it was fixed by the update in the VM, you would know that and could then wait for your distro to get the update or even contact the distro community with that knowledge.
I get that it was frustrating but it truly wasn’t their job to tell you how risky that move was.
-
I doubt paying them would fix their attitude.
Don‘t they have sponsors?
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Ok yeah if pay is shit you can’t have high expectations
Red Hat is the main sponsor IIRC. Fedora is the “flagship” Gnome distro like SUSE is to KDE.
isn’t neon the flagship kde distro?
Ehh is Neon even really a distro? Anyway SUSE has had KDE as default for a loooong time, longer than Neon has existed (or even Ubuntu itself, perhaps)
Red Hat used to pay the main ones, not sure if that’s still the case post-IBM acquisition.
Ah I understand. They don’t get paid (but still do) so they can be shitty to people, opinionated about their software and overall toxic.
Oh noes! Design spec?!? :( STANDARDS AND ETHICS?!?! No! I Want you to install my halfass, broken solution instead of waiting for a proper solution to come along! I’m such a special boy and know coding better than you! HOW DARE YOU HAVE PLANS!! /s
Like some of you are buffoons and need to go use something like Plasma instead. I love Plasma, not pushing that down, it’s just that if you don’t know the modus operandi of GNOME in 2024 already, you might as well give up trying.
At the very least give up complaining. You wouldn’t have Wayland if it weren’t for WONTFIX, ya daft cunts.
You wouldn’t have Wayland if it weren’t for WONTFIX, ya daft cunts.
Bit rich to say that considering the reason most very useful and well written Wayland protocol proposals that would get it up to par with X11 are rejected is because Gnome vetoes it since it doesn’t match their vision for the Gnome desktop
“most very useful”.
List. Tell me which ones.
Design spec?!? :( STANDARDS AND ETHICS?!?!
FYI, GNOME recently broke Adwaita on non-GNOME apps because they started using nonstandard icon names without providing a fallback. Any way you look at it, it’s GNOME shovelling the shit.
Huh, I guess you’re getting to them then with your massive winging. Guess you’ll get your Rube Goldberg desktop you want and still complain.
You wouldn’t have Wayland if it weren’t for WONTFIX, ya daft cunts.
16 years later, and it still barely works. Plasma made it a first-class citizen in the last release and I still had to switch back to X11 because a million WONTFIXes later there’s so many hacked together solutions just to get it to barely work its insane. How do you mess up copy and paste??
“16 years of paving the way for Plasma”.
There, fixed that for you.
Wayland works fine, the kde’s implementation of wayland is just not mature yet which is to be expected given how recently they decided to hop on the bandwagon
your comment doesn’t include client-side decorations and doesn’t link to a decorations provider, you’ll have to fix that next time
Yeah it’s not for me but its goal is to be the polished and distinctive option. Plasma is the “sure you can try” choice. And I love having enough rope to hang myself, but some people don’t
LOL, we still don’t have Wayland because the daft cunts at Gnome still haven’t heard of 4k displays and setting scaling factors for Xwayland…you know…problems Plasma never had in the first place.
All Gnome does is propose half baked measures they don’t take any action on because the fully formed cohesive solution doesn’t spontaneously magic itself into existence, then gaslight the users. Fuck Gnome.
I can’t tell if you are praising KDE or gnome. They both have different goals.
Both are great projects really, and big projects at that - big stacks, lots of moving parts.
Whereas GNOME tries to be more uniform, Plasma tries to be more bespoke.
I don’t care which one you use, really. I just love GNOME design principles and it’s desktop paradigm.
Is GNOME a perfect project? No. But when these troglodytes crawl out of their discord servers, I just can’t help but be infuriated by their pure malice and ignorance.
So fuck em. I’m done with this thread.
You have a nice day now, y’hear?
I gnomerstand
This Post and the Comments here are a prime example why i will never opensource any of my Projects.
Too many people here that feel like the Developers owe them something.
Wait until you see how people talk about closed source projects they have paid for.
Same thing, except you will owe them something.
I open source all of my projects. Most people I encounter are reasonably polite, but of course even my most popular is used by a tiny fraction of the number of Gnome users. In any case, I long ago stopped caring about being beholden to users. Often they’re doing me favors and finding issues I haven’t, and some even provide useful analysis that saves me work. A few provide contributions. But at the end of the day, I do what I do for me, and anyone else who benefits from it provides a small dose of dopamine from being useful.
I regularly fork projects and implement changes I want; I also file PRs, but in the case the upstream author has different opinions about it, requiring work I don’t think it’s necessary, I just let it go and maintain my own fork.
This is not Ideal Open Software Development, with many people contributing to a common goal. It’s fractured and selfish. But the other way, it becomes work, and nobody’s paying me for this, and so I give no fucks.
My mental health improved drastically once I stopped emotionally caring about the opinions of my users. I still care about the technicalities, but only insofar as they affect me or I deem them to be a superior solution. Key to this is not engaging emotionally; if I’m not interested in working on it, I just say so: I have other priorities, but an happy to review and maybe accept PRs.
Or i can just do what i am doing now and keep the Repos as private and only use them for myself, family and friends
Yeah, that’s fair. It’s your work; you have no moral obligation to share it. Despite what the commies might say.
You can just ignore them you know
Or I can just save myself the effort.
It’s BTW funny how no one here criticizes the behavior I mentioned but instead attacks my conclusion I draw from that behavior. Which only further solidifies my decision.
you as a developer owe them nothing. You can just be a dick. It’s allowed.
I would like the feedback to know why people do not like my project and if I feel like I should care about that perspective.
Further, gnome is hard to ignore, and getting harder all the time. Beyond being the default, even when I go to the trouble of switching the desktop, certain applications in GTK will bring the Gnome design language wherever it goes, and it’s deviated enough to not be possible to theme into consistency. It’s design decisions permeate the distributions and create some headaches even when you make a fair effort to opt out of it.
that is unironically amazing and the Foss Community needs people like you. And if i ever use one of your Projects, I’ll be sure to donate to you.
But: That’s you and not me. I don’t have the Time or Energy to maintain Projects for other people. My Projects are usually for my exact Usecase and that only. I don’t have the Energy or will dealing with people saying “doesn’t work for me” or “please update” or “please add [Feature that i don’t need]”
how about you stop being an entitled brat?
Guys I found the GNOME dev!
Ironically it’s this Behaviour shown here that will prevent me from ever opensourcing my personal Projects and thus becoming a FOSS-Contributor.
So no, I am not. And it is in large Parts thanks to you.
Then why are you here? The very platform your saying this on is FOSS, and it’s filled with FOSS bros.
Unironically why are you here?
Im sorry, I didn’t realize I wasn’t allowed to use and enjoy Foss projects anymore
Anything else you wanna gatekeep?
Talks about gatekeep while crying about all his projects he will keep all to himself. You are a special kind of insufferable, huh?
You are not entitled to my work. If you want access to them, stop being an insufferable entitled brat. It’s exactly this behavior why I won’t open-source them. Are you too dense to see how toxic parts of this community are?
At least I donate to Foss-projects.
Can you say that about yourself?
Something tells me you’ll always have an excuse to never open-source your stuff, even after people stop being “entitled brats.”
You can be smug and feel superior all you want, in the end, any contributions you could make would be worthless anyway :)
You can stay all you want, the best part of FOSS projects is that anyone can use and contribute. Even menial things such as messages on a FOSS social platform.
But you never answered my question. What compels you to use Lemmy, while being anti-FOSS yourself?
I don’t want you to leave, stay by all means, I just want to know.
Where did I say that I’m anti-Foss? Please show me the exact location.
Please explain to me how I’m anti-Foss when I’m practically only using Foss projects and donating to them.
I want to know exactly how I’m supposed to know any of that. Should I stalk you? Look at every account you have and learn everything there is to know? And who is saying your telling the truth?
Someone who touts “never making my projects open source because muh feelings” then says this has alot of double standards I think.
So to get it straight… You call people stating their preference on an open source project as being an entitled brat, while simultaneously saying you’ll never make any open source contributions while using open source because you wouldn’t like anyone disagreeing with you? That seems pretty entitled…
I make no demands and i give Donations. How is that entitled?
Talk about projection…
Ok, boomer
Good, because the attitude you have means you’ll only develop for your own use case and then call anyone else an entitled brat. We don’t want your shitty project if you’re so narrow minded. Please keep it off of repo’s and don’t risk anyone accidentally rolling it in and creating even more worthless noise.
Entitled brat? What… Have you ever seen how GNOME developers respond to some bug reports and merge requests?
Since when has reporting bugs and contributing to the project become an entitlement?
Yes i did. Reported a Bug relating to the workspace switcher and a bugfix got merged withing 24 hours.
Did I say “some”? I think I did.
GNOME developers seem to have some sort of a weird “vision” for their software. If your bug report falls within their vision, good for you. When your bug report doesn’t, it’s insta WONTFIX.
The FDO icon theme fiasco occurred merely a few days ago.
People who do work for themselves and share it with other people don’t do work for other people, big shocker.
Like, seriously, if your Neighbor makes a cake and shares it with you, do you also ask them “that’s nice but can you next time make [cake i like]?”? no! you say thank you and you’re grateful someone is sharing their hard work with you!
People who do work for themselves
Did you notice that I said “merge request” earlier? Your neighbours were kindly helping you to make a cake and you responded to their kindness with GTFO.
If your code isn’t up to par, or your feature isn’t relevant enough and doesn’t fit “the vision”, it’s correct to deny it. On top of diluting the project contributed code add a maintainership cost that the random contributor will probably not be footing.
Accept everything in your cake and tomorrow it’ll be an inedible mess that nobody wants. It’s ok for software to be aimed at different people.
