“functioning according to their certification” doesn’t prove to me that they aren’t shaving the odds or injecting sneaky code into the process. I have to trust in the technical ability of the regulators.
Also, I could write “regulated by the Maltese” on the bottom of any website, it doesn’t make it true.
They can’t add sneaky code to the process (without getting caught). For sensitive game code every single change needs to be tracked and reviewed by the authority.
You get audited at least once a year, and then all the changes are reviewed. Authorities outsource the job for the technical reviews to specialized companies.
Also, what’s the point? The games already provide a margin to the host, why risking to go out of business for such an irrelevant gain (a few more %)?
Add to this that usually casino games writers do just that, write games and sell those to N casinos. So the incentive for the casino games writers are even smaller.
Finally, yes you can write “license X”, but you can cross-check that information from the regulator itself, you don’t need to trust just the line on the site.
The point is you as a customer can choose a trustworthy site, ideally one who is licensed in countries where regulations are quite tight (in Europe I would say Denmark), before putting your money somewhere.
At some point you need to trust “someone”, that’s how the whole world works. The gambling authorities are no different than the authorities that enforce the safety certifications for electrict equipment, or cars, or whatever.
If your concern is that you would lose money on casino games because the site rigged it, it’s a relatively silly concern. You will lose because the casino games are designed to make you lose in the long term, on average.
They can’t add sneaky code to the process (without getting caught).
That means that people have to check
For sensitive game code every single change needs to be tracked and reviewed by the authority.
You get audited at least once a year, and then all the changes are reviewed. Authorities outsource the job for the technical reviews to specialized companies.
Or just ignore that and publish whatever you like.
why risking to go out of business for such an irrelevant gain
Why spend money to meet regulations?
Finally, yes you can write “license X”, but you can cross-check that information from the regulator itself, you don’t need to trust just the line on the site.
How many users actually do this? A very low percentage.
point is you as a customer can choose a trustworthy site,
The point is that many don’t.
If your concern is that you would lose money on casino games because the site rigged it, it’s a relatively silly concern.
Not really. It’s one of the reasons why online casinos can be bad.
The question was what is “wrong with online casinos”. So I gave an example. Others include money laundering, exploitation of addiction, exploitation of stupidity, waste of resources, tax evasion etc
.
Have you ever made a single transaction online paying with your credit or debit card? How do you know the site didn’t steal or misuse your information?
The answer is that storing, transmitting or processing card data requires you to be PCI-DSS compliant, which is a very strict standard. If you get caught violating that you are out of business and fined in the abyss, which is a much bigger risk than stealing john doe’s pennies.
Sorry but from what you are saying it seems you simply don’t understand how compliance works.
That means that people have to check
And that is why you have at least annual audits (for each license, plus AML, plus other stuff), and why you need to present the whole chain of changes that happened to sensitive code.
Why spend money to meet regulations?
Because if you get caught not doing that you lose access to whole markets at once and get fined. There is no economic incentive as complying doesn’t cost nearly as much. Specifically, I told you that casino game makers are generally not casinos, they are software houses. So they can’t care less about rigging the games, their revenue comes from companies paying for using their games. Casinos also don’t care of rigging games because games are designed to leave them a certain margin anyway, so why doing it?
The point is that many don’t.
And that’s why national regulations are generally a safe umbrella. If you see a website (through advertisements) that means that website is allowed locally and already met the national regulations.
If you are in a non regulated country then you will need to do a tiny bit of research. You are putting money on a site, after all (you should do the same for everything you do online).
The question was what is “wrong with online casinos”. So I gave an example. Others include money laundering, exploitation of addiction, exploitation of stupidity, waste of resources, tax evasion etc
Yes, you gave examples based on your own speculations. It’s clear you have no idea how the industry works. Money laundering is something international law covers and is extremely tightly controlled, tax evasion is also completely insane for online businesses, because every transaction has a trail and there are tight regulations about what you need to report for every country where you operate. Exploitation of stupidity, sure. Some also exploit addiction, regulations exist for that too, and for some businesses addicts are terrible customers.
Question: what exactly is your experience with the gambling business?
Because to me it seems you are making stuff up or basing your statements on movies about gambling and oeganised crime, while the reality is much simpler: companies get money simply by having active users on their sites. Quantity is the name of the game.
How do you know the site didn’t steal or misuse your information?
Exactly. Scam websites can be casinos or shops or anything.
You are vehemently defending the “legitimate” casino industry whereas I am saying it’s easy to create scam casinos.
Yes, you gave examples based on your own speculations. It’s clear you have no idea how the industry works.
I know well how it works.
Money laundering is something international law covers and is extremely tightly controlled, tax evasion is also completely insane for online businesses, because every transaction has a trail and there are tight regulations about what you need to report for every country where you operate.
Casinos, on and offline, are excellent ways to launder. The amount of regulations trying to mitigate this risk proves my point.
Exploitation of stupidity, sure.
Glad we agree here.
Some also exploit addiction, regulations exist for that too, and for some businesses addicts are terrible customers.
Not for casinos. Gambling addiction is a casino’s main business. Why are there no windows in Vegas?
Question: what exactly is your experience with the gambling business?
Betfair, betfred, bet356, Ladbrokes etc.
Exchanges for sports and real life events I have little problem with.
I only have probems with sites that scam people with flashing lights and random number generators.
Quantity is the name of the game.
Yes. Online you can scam many more people with fake roulette tables.
Exactly. Scam websites can be casinos or shops or anything.
Ok, you understand that this is a completely different set of businesses compared to established casino business, right?
Talking about scam website to infer things about the “real” counterparts doesn’t make much sense. Yes, there is scam-everything. Doesn’t mean “shops are scam”, because there are shops which scam people. So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover.
In any case, licenses are a very effective way to protect yourself from scammers.
Casinos, on and offline, are excellent ways to launder. The amount of regulations trying to mitigate this risk proves my point.
As all systems that allow to move money, they are excellent vectors, but doesn’t mean they are excellent ways to launder money. Regulations prevent money laundering (or strongly mitigating), which makes them less and less viable for laundering. I specifically talk about online casinos, since cash is not an option.
Not for casinos. Gambling addiction is a casino’s main business. Why are there no windows in Vegas?
Online and physical casinos are different and they comply with different regulations. In online casinos for example it might be mandatory to limit session duration, show popups every X minutes to inform about losses and duration of the session etc., depending on licenses. These are just responsible gaming measures enforced by licenses (in this case the Maltese, which is a very common one), which do not apply to physical casinos.
Yes. Online you can scam many more people with fake roulette tables.
So, this is the crux of the problem: your definition of scamming seems to be variable. There are only two options:
The casino game works according to specifics
The casino game is rigged, meaning it provides better odds to the host compared to its specifics
Both of them provide revenue for the host, with the second being marginally higher (you can’t have 80% margin, people won’t play). The second though has the problem that it won’t pass certification, so the only way to serve it is on unlicensed sites. Being unlicensed makes it impossible to access whole markets. So, why companies should go for the second and not the first, when even the first is providing money and a bigger pool of players?
To support your claim, maybe you can list a bunch of articles about casinos getting caught with rigged games that were licensed? I did a quick search and nothing popped up immediately (although they might exist, and it’s a good thing they got caught, which shows controls work).
Betfair, betfred, bet356, Ladbrokes etc.
As a user? Because that doesn’t tell much.
Anyway, bet365 has a casino, do you trust it?
“What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen”
All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.
Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.
Fake Betting Sites: Scammers create fake betting websites that appear legitimate but are designed to steal your personal and financial information. Always ensure you’re using reputable and licensed betting sites.
Phishing: Scammers send fraudulent emails or messages claiming to be from legitimate betting sites, asking for your login details, password, or payment information. Never share sensitive information through email or messages.
Too Good to Be True Offers: Scammers may promise guaranteed wins or insider information for a fee. They might also offer bonuses that seem too good to be true. These offers are often designed to take your money without delivering results.
Tipster Scams: Some scammers pose as expert tipsters or handicappers, offering betting tips or predictions for a fee. They may manipulate their records to show past success, but their actual tips might not yield positive results.
Unregulated Casinos: Betting on unregulated or unlicensed casinos can put your money and personal information at risk. Always choose licensed and regulated casinos and sportsbooks.
Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.
Payment Scams: Scammers may ask for upfront payment to access their “winning system” or betting tips. Legitimate services do not require upfront payments for access to tips.
Match-Fixing Scams: Some scammers claim to have inside information about match-fixing or rigged games and offer to sell this information. This is often a ploy to steal your money.
Identity Theft: Scammers might impersonate betting sites to collect personal information for identity theft. Always ensure you’re on a secure and legitimate site.
Unfair Terms and Conditions: Some betting sites have complex or unfair terms and conditions that make it difficult to withdraw winnings or bonuses. Always read the terms before betting.
From the user perspective they are the same. A scam casino is much easier to create than a scam Nike shop.
it’s not. Creating a game is much more complex than putting a bunch of images and text on a web page. Also in order to play casino games you need to deposit money, so you need to also develop that part, a scan shop can simply spoof the payment window and steal the card directly…
Not if the licence is fake.
If you got to know about the casino, chances are it’s a legitimate business. It doesn’t take a PhD also to just double check the website. If you are looking for casinos online digging in the internet, rather than surfing the most prominent businesses, then yes. If you just pick the mainstream ones, you are covered. The chance you lose because the game is rigged is negligible. Also, you are putting money somewhere, you should make some basic checks (it’s enough a 10 second search for the license ID and check your regulator website).
“Might be mandatory” means that it might not be, and for certain casino operators don’t want it.
No, it means that it depends on licenses. Different licenses require different things. If you hold the Maltese license, you need to have it, period. Maybe there are licenses that don’t prescribe that particular thing, hence “might be”.
Yes. There is the objective “designed to steal” scamming and my subjective dislike of betting against a dressed up random number generator.
Games have to be random number generators lol. There is nothing to dress up, that’s exactly what playing casino games is like. It’s a RNG where you have the 50%-the margin chance to win.
This has nothing to do with scamming, or rigging games, which was your initial argument.
Lots of anecdotes along the lines of
Ok… lol
“What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen”
Absolutely the bookie will know the customers and might apply different limits and different odds. If you are suspected being a part of a syndicate, for example, you will get worse odds.
This is not a scam, you see exactly what the odds are, it is not hidden from you. This applies to sportsbook, not casino.
All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.
This has nothing to do with casino or scamming. Also, sure betters are generally not blacklisted, they simply get limits applied as anyway to make any kind of money you need high volumes. Again, what does this have to do with rigging games?
You can’t “rig” sportsbook, when you bet you see clearly what the odds are and you can compare and choose another provider with better odds.
Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.
Wow, very useful dump.
Have you read the “rigged games” part?
Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.
Note that 7/10 items in that list are simply scams by individuals targeting other individuals and have nothing to do with casinos.
The only relevant ones are:
Unregulated Casinos
Rigged Games
Unfair Terms and Conditions
The solution for the first 2 is to use licensed providers. The last one is absolutely true, usually in bigger or established businesses, but has nothing to do with rigging games.
Basically nothing of this info dump from Quora (for what is worth) corroborates your argument…
To be honest, is it so hard to admit that you simply don’t like gambling because it’s taking money from people who don’t know better? I agree with that myself, and it’s a sufficient criticism to dislike casinos. There is no need to make up totally false information to add arguments.
No, mainstream, reputable and licensed casinos will not rig games and steal money from you. Yes, they will take money from you in the majority of cases because games - all of them - are designed to benefit the house. No, they don’t help laundering money because in most cases they will get caught and lose the whole business, it’s very, very, very hard to hide activity when you have multiple regulators plus the usual government agencies look at your reports constantly, and all your transactions are tracked.
Creating a game is much more complex than putting a bunch of images and text on a web page.
That’s why scammers usually just pirate and hack small parts of the codebase.
Also in order to play casino games you need to deposit money, so you need to also develop that part, a scan shop can simply spoof the payment window and steal the card directly…
You don’t get as much money that way. Better to encourage larger deposits and “crash” when large withdrawals are requested.
If you got to know about the casino, chances are it’s a legitimate business.
Not necessarily. Popups and emails exist. Especially interesting if they offer free spins.
This has nothing to do with scamming, or rigging games, which was your initial argument.
The original question was “what is wrong with online casinos”. One answer I gave was scammers, then you pressed me for more.
Note that 7/10 items in that list are simply scams by individuals targeting other individuals and have nothing to do with casinos.
DUDE. This is the point. You can’t argue that online casinos are fine so long as you ignore all the bad casinos and scammers.
Unfair Terms and Conditions […] is absolutely true, usually in bigger or established businesses, but has nothing to do with rigging games.
Fuck me. You admit online casinos are unfair then immediately dismiss this as unimportant. Now I suspect I’m arguing against a paid troll.
“functioning according to their certification” doesn’t prove to me that they aren’t shaving the odds or injecting sneaky code into the process. I have to trust in the technical ability of the regulators.
Also, I could write “regulated by the Maltese” on the bottom of any website, it doesn’t make it true.
They can’t add sneaky code to the process (without getting caught). For sensitive game code every single change needs to be tracked and reviewed by the authority. You get audited at least once a year, and then all the changes are reviewed. Authorities outsource the job for the technical reviews to specialized companies.
Also, what’s the point? The games already provide a margin to the host, why risking to go out of business for such an irrelevant gain (a few more %)? Add to this that usually casino games writers do just that, write games and sell those to N casinos. So the incentive for the casino games writers are even smaller.
Finally, yes you can write “license X”, but you can cross-check that information from the regulator itself, you don’t need to trust just the line on the site. The point is you as a customer can choose a trustworthy site, ideally one who is licensed in countries where regulations are quite tight (in Europe I would say Denmark), before putting your money somewhere.
At some point you need to trust “someone”, that’s how the whole world works. The gambling authorities are no different than the authorities that enforce the safety certifications for electrict equipment, or cars, or whatever.
If your concern is that you would lose money on casino games because the site rigged it, it’s a relatively silly concern. You will lose because the casino games are designed to make you lose in the long term, on average.
That means that people have to check
Or just ignore that and publish whatever you like.
Why spend money to meet regulations?
How many users actually do this? A very low percentage.
The point is that many don’t.
Not really. It’s one of the reasons why online casinos can be bad.
The question was what is “wrong with online casinos”. So I gave an example. Others include money laundering, exploitation of addiction, exploitation of stupidity, waste of resources, tax evasion etc .
Have you ever made a single transaction online paying with your credit or debit card? How do you know the site didn’t steal or misuse your information?
The answer is that storing, transmitting or processing card data requires you to be PCI-DSS compliant, which is a very strict standard. If you get caught violating that you are out of business and fined in the abyss, which is a much bigger risk than stealing john doe’s pennies.
Sorry but from what you are saying it seems you simply don’t understand how compliance works.
And that is why you have at least annual audits (for each license, plus AML, plus other stuff), and why you need to present the whole chain of changes that happened to sensitive code.
Because if you get caught not doing that you lose access to whole markets at once and get fined. There is no economic incentive as complying doesn’t cost nearly as much. Specifically, I told you that casino game makers are generally not casinos, they are software houses. So they can’t care less about rigging the games, their revenue comes from companies paying for using their games. Casinos also don’t care of rigging games because games are designed to leave them a certain margin anyway, so why doing it?
And that’s why national regulations are generally a safe umbrella. If you see a website (through advertisements) that means that website is allowed locally and already met the national regulations.
If you are in a non regulated country then you will need to do a tiny bit of research. You are putting money on a site, after all (you should do the same for everything you do online).
Yes, you gave examples based on your own speculations. It’s clear you have no idea how the industry works. Money laundering is something international law covers and is extremely tightly controlled, tax evasion is also completely insane for online businesses, because every transaction has a trail and there are tight regulations about what you need to report for every country where you operate. Exploitation of stupidity, sure. Some also exploit addiction, regulations exist for that too, and for some businesses addicts are terrible customers.
Question: what exactly is your experience with the gambling business?
Because to me it seems you are making stuff up or basing your statements on movies about gambling and oeganised crime, while the reality is much simpler: companies get money simply by having active users on their sites. Quantity is the name of the game.
Exactly. Scam websites can be casinos or shops or anything.
You are vehemently defending the “legitimate” casino industry whereas I am saying it’s easy to create scam casinos.
I know well how it works.
Casinos, on and offline, are excellent ways to launder. The amount of regulations trying to mitigate this risk proves my point.
Glad we agree here.
Not for casinos. Gambling addiction is a casino’s main business. Why are there no windows in Vegas?
Betfair, betfred, bet356, Ladbrokes etc.
Exchanges for sports and real life events I have little problem with.
I only have probems with sites that scam people with flashing lights and random number generators.
Yes. Online you can scam many more people with fake roulette tables.
Ok, you understand that this is a completely different set of businesses compared to established casino business, right?
Talking about scam website to infer things about the “real” counterparts doesn’t make much sense. Yes, there is scam-everything. Doesn’t mean “shops are scam”, because there are shops which scam people. So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover.
In any case, licenses are a very effective way to protect yourself from scammers.
As all systems that allow to move money, they are excellent vectors, but doesn’t mean they are excellent ways to launder money. Regulations prevent money laundering (or strongly mitigating), which makes them less and less viable for laundering. I specifically talk about online casinos, since cash is not an option.
Online and physical casinos are different and they comply with different regulations. In online casinos for example it might be mandatory to limit session duration, show popups every X minutes to inform about losses and duration of the session etc., depending on licenses. These are just responsible gaming measures enforced by licenses (in this case the Maltese, which is a very common one), which do not apply to physical casinos.
So, this is the crux of the problem: your definition of scamming seems to be variable. There are only two options:
Both of them provide revenue for the host, with the second being marginally higher (you can’t have 80% margin, people won’t play). The second though has the problem that it won’t pass certification, so the only way to serve it is on unlicensed sites. Being unlicensed makes it impossible to access whole markets. So, why companies should go for the second and not the first, when even the first is providing money and a bigger pool of players?
To support your claim, maybe you can list a bunch of articles about casinos getting caught with rigged games that were licensed? I did a quick search and nothing popped up immediately (although they might exist, and it’s a good thing they got caught, which shows controls work).
As a user? Because that doesn’t tell much. Anyway, bet365 has a casino, do you trust it?
From the user perspective they are the same. A scam casino is much easier to create than a scam Nike shop.
Not if the licence is fake.
“Might be mandatory” means that it might not be, and for certain casino operators don’t want it.
Yes. There is the objective “designed to steal” scamming and my subjective dislike of betting against a dressed up random number generator.
No. But that is my subjective dislike.
Lots of anecdotes along the lines of
“online slots usually let you go up a bit and are relatively generous for the first 20-30 minutes of play, then the odds drop drastically when the algorithms realize you’re hooked/chasing the dragon”
https://www.smithfieldtimes.com/2024/01/14/6-common-casino-scams-to-avoid-online/
https://morganfinancialrecovery.com/scams/online-casino-scams/
https://www.legitgamblingsites.com/blog/online-casino-scams-be-aware-of/
“What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen”
All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.
Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.
Fake Betting Sites: Scammers create fake betting websites that appear legitimate but are designed to steal your personal and financial information. Always ensure you’re using reputable and licensed betting sites.
Phishing: Scammers send fraudulent emails or messages claiming to be from legitimate betting sites, asking for your login details, password, or payment information. Never share sensitive information through email or messages.
Too Good to Be True Offers: Scammers may promise guaranteed wins or insider information for a fee. They might also offer bonuses that seem too good to be true. These offers are often designed to take your money without delivering results.
Tipster Scams: Some scammers pose as expert tipsters or handicappers, offering betting tips or predictions for a fee. They may manipulate their records to show past success, but their actual tips might not yield positive results.
Unregulated Casinos: Betting on unregulated or unlicensed casinos can put your money and personal information at risk. Always choose licensed and regulated casinos and sportsbooks.
Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.
Payment Scams: Scammers may ask for upfront payment to access their “winning system” or betting tips. Legitimate services do not require upfront payments for access to tips.
Match-Fixing Scams: Some scammers claim to have inside information about match-fixing or rigged games and offer to sell this information. This is often a ploy to steal your money.
Identity Theft: Scammers might impersonate betting sites to collect personal information for identity theft. Always ensure you’re on a secure and legitimate site.
Unfair Terms and Conditions: Some betting sites have complex or unfair terms and conditions that make it difficult to withdraw winnings or bonuses. Always read the terms before betting.
it’s not. Creating a game is much more complex than putting a bunch of images and text on a web page. Also in order to play casino games you need to deposit money, so you need to also develop that part, a scan shop can simply spoof the payment window and steal the card directly…
If you got to know about the casino, chances are it’s a legitimate business. It doesn’t take a PhD also to just double check the website. If you are looking for casinos online digging in the internet, rather than surfing the most prominent businesses, then yes. If you just pick the mainstream ones, you are covered. The chance you lose because the game is rigged is negligible. Also, you are putting money somewhere, you should make some basic checks (it’s enough a 10 second search for the license ID and check your regulator website).
No, it means that it depends on licenses. Different licenses require different things. If you hold the Maltese license, you need to have it, period. Maybe there are licenses that don’t prescribe that particular thing, hence “might be”.
Games have to be random number generators lol. There is nothing to dress up, that’s exactly what playing casino games is like. It’s a RNG where you have the 50%-the margin chance to win. This has nothing to do with scamming, or rigging games, which was your initial argument.
Ok… lol
Absolutely the bookie will know the customers and might apply different limits and different odds. If you are suspected being a part of a syndicate, for example, you will get worse odds. This is not a scam, you see exactly what the odds are, it is not hidden from you. This applies to sportsbook, not casino.
This has nothing to do with casino or scamming. Also, sure betters are generally not blacklisted, they simply get limits applied as anyway to make any kind of money you need high volumes. Again, what does this have to do with rigging games? You can’t “rig” sportsbook, when you bet you see clearly what the odds are and you can compare and choose another provider with better odds.
Wow, very useful dump. Have you read the “rigged games” part?
Note that 7/10 items in that list are simply scams by individuals targeting other individuals and have nothing to do with casinos. The only relevant ones are:
The solution for the first 2 is to use licensed providers. The last one is absolutely true, usually in bigger or established businesses, but has nothing to do with rigging games.
Basically nothing of this info dump from Quora (for what is worth) corroborates your argument…
To be honest, is it so hard to admit that you simply don’t like gambling because it’s taking money from people who don’t know better? I agree with that myself, and it’s a sufficient criticism to dislike casinos. There is no need to make up totally false information to add arguments.
No, mainstream, reputable and licensed casinos will not rig games and steal money from you. Yes, they will take money from you in the majority of cases because games - all of them - are designed to benefit the house. No, they don’t help laundering money because in most cases they will get caught and lose the whole business, it’s very, very, very hard to hide activity when you have multiple regulators plus the usual government agencies look at your reports constantly, and all your transactions are tracked.
That’s why scammers usually just pirate and hack small parts of the codebase.
You don’t get as much money that way. Better to encourage larger deposits and “crash” when large withdrawals are requested.
Not necessarily. Popups and emails exist. Especially interesting if they offer free spins.
The original question was “what is wrong with online casinos”. One answer I gave was scammers, then you pressed me for more.
DUDE. This is the point. You can’t argue that online casinos are fine so long as you ignore all the bad casinos and scammers.
Fuck me. You admit online casinos are unfair then immediately dismiss this as unimportant. Now I suspect I’m arguing against a paid troll.