I have actually met a Zoroastrian and had some fascinating conversations about their religion. I would never practice their religion, nor do I particularly care for organized religion, but I’m glad I got to meet and talk to them because it helped me understand a personal experience I would never untake.
Judaism is often the target of hatred, these days, because of anti-semites. Not because of debates about the merits of the religion. Those debates are primarily held internally - you know, amongst people who actually know and care about the religion.
Yes, of fucking course I have. Not that it would have any bearing on my ability to talk shit about enshrined dogma or free-range woo-woo nonsense. Nor would it absolve me, if I started labeling those engineers according to the beliefs of AK-wielding maniacs.
Congratulations on identifying antisemitism as bigotry. Apply that to Islam and you’ll find the topic of this discussion. ‘Islam is often the target of hatred, not on the merits of the religion, but because of bigoted assholes.’
People who are criticizing the religion itself have to distinguish themselves from those assholes. It takes additional effort. Audiences expecting it’s all insincere cover for bigotry is not ideal, but it’s better than letting racists make flimsy excuses.
People whose only contribution is religious criticism are doing nothing wrong.
For the Muslims I have known, I respect their right to practice whatever nonsense they like. But. I respect them. Their religion is nonsense, as all religions are nonsense. Any positive experience exists in spite of their holy text saying, in black and white, that the AK-wielding maniacs have the right idea. I have endless vitriol for morons who insist all Muslims must believe blah blah blah, because, plainly not. But the most defanged version of any Abrahamic faith is still really fucked up. And that wide base of wishy-washy support is a constant shield and breeding-ground for the diehard violent loons.
‘This is the unquestionable word of the creator of the universe, but ehhh don’t take it too seriously’ is a hard sell.
Well I have met and talked to several Muslims in my life.
Religion only really came up for a couple of them, because you know, they’re just people going through their lives like anyone else and religion doesn’t often come up in polite company unless you’re a part of their religion. But there are a few I’ve gotten to know well enough to feel comfortable about asking.
Anyway, after some expected hesitancy, and some convincing that I’m just curious about their experiences, everyone I’ve talked to explained that their experience of islam is very peaceful and compassionate and gives them a sense of belonging and community. One asked about my own experiences with religion, which made them feel lucky to have found a good community. I said I had found other communities and was fine. And after that day, I felt like we understood eacj other a little better than before.
I knew a Sikh woman once, so wore the whole garb even though she lived in America. I asked her how she felt about the garb, and expected something something sacred religious whatever. But she surprised me by saying she felt the garb was a form of expression for her, an identity, and also made her felt safer - this was before 9/11. She said it was her choice to wear it and wore it proudly. And that really gave me the context I needed to break out of my biases about Islam and accept that we all do wierd shit, religious or otherwise, and that’s not only okay, it makes us unique and interesting.
When I look at the replies on this post, I see a lot of confusion, a lot of anger, a lot of hatred, and a lot of circlejerking. And rightly so, because there’s no context to this post. No, criticizing Islam isn’t always racist but it really depends on the context and the individuals receiving it.
OP is repeating the same dangerous rhetoric that I see across all sides of disagreement - but is always connected to bigotry: “I should be allowed to criticize without being criticized.” I can’t deny the appeal of such a request but it’s unreasonable. OP is absolutely allowed to say whatever he wants. But his audience is also free to respond and interpret.
The thing is, when you send negativity out into the world, you get it back. And if OP isn’t ready for that, maybe he should find more positive messages to send.
Edit: whoops I called someone both a muslim and sikh. She converted so my mind for some reason conflated the two.
I totally agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I do have a quick question cos I think maybe I’m confused. You met a Muslim woman who was Sikh? I thought they were two different religions!
I have actually met a Zoroastrian and had some fascinating conversations about their religion. I would never practice their religion, nor do I particularly care for organized religion, but I’m glad I got to meet and talk to them because it helped me understand a personal experience I would never untake.
Judaism is often the target of hatred, these days, because of anti-semites. Not because of debates about the merits of the religion. Those debates are primarily held internally - you know, amongst people who actually know and care about the religion.
Have you ever met a Muslim?
Yes, of fucking course I have. Not that it would have any bearing on my ability to talk shit about enshrined dogma or free-range woo-woo nonsense. Nor would it absolve me, if I started labeling those engineers according to the beliefs of AK-wielding maniacs.
Congratulations on identifying antisemitism as bigotry. Apply that to Islam and you’ll find the topic of this discussion. ‘Islam is often the target of hatred, not on the merits of the religion, but because of bigoted assholes.’
People who are criticizing the religion itself have to distinguish themselves from those assholes. It takes additional effort. Audiences expecting it’s all insincere cover for bigotry is not ideal, but it’s better than letting racists make flimsy excuses.
People whose only contribution is religious criticism are doing nothing wrong.
For the Muslims I have known, I respect their right to practice whatever nonsense they like. But. I respect them. Their religion is nonsense, as all religions are nonsense. Any positive experience exists in spite of their holy text saying, in black and white, that the AK-wielding maniacs have the right idea. I have endless vitriol for morons who insist all Muslims must believe blah blah blah, because, plainly not. But the most defanged version of any Abrahamic faith is still really fucked up. And that wide base of wishy-washy support is a constant shield and breeding-ground for the diehard violent loons.
‘This is the unquestionable word of the creator of the universe, but ehhh don’t take it too seriously’ is a hard sell.
Uh huh.
Well I have met and talked to several Muslims in my life. Religion only really came up for a couple of them, because you know, they’re just people going through their lives like anyone else and religion doesn’t often come up in polite company unless you’re a part of their religion. But there are a few I’ve gotten to know well enough to feel comfortable about asking.
Anyway, after some expected hesitancy, and some convincing that I’m just curious about their experiences, everyone I’ve talked to explained that their experience of islam is very peaceful and compassionate and gives them a sense of belonging and community. One asked about my own experiences with religion, which made them feel lucky to have found a good community. I said I had found other communities and was fine. And after that day, I felt like we understood eacj other a little better than before.
I knew a Sikh woman once, so wore the whole garb even though she lived in America. I asked her how she felt about the garb, and expected something something sacred religious whatever. But she surprised me by saying she felt the garb was a form of expression for her, an identity, and also made her felt safer - this was before 9/11. She said it was her choice to wear it and wore it proudly. And that really gave me the context I needed to break out of my biases about Islam and accept that we all do wierd shit, religious or otherwise, and that’s not only okay, it makes us unique and interesting.
When I look at the replies on this post, I see a lot of confusion, a lot of anger, a lot of hatred, and a lot of circlejerking. And rightly so, because there’s no context to this post. No, criticizing Islam isn’t always racist but it really depends on the context and the individuals receiving it.
OP is repeating the same dangerous rhetoric that I see across all sides of disagreement - but is always connected to bigotry: “I should be allowed to criticize without being criticized.” I can’t deny the appeal of such a request but it’s unreasonable. OP is absolutely allowed to say whatever he wants. But his audience is also free to respond and interpret.
The thing is, when you send negativity out into the world, you get it back. And if OP isn’t ready for that, maybe he should find more positive messages to send.
Edit: whoops I called someone both a muslim and sikh. She converted so my mind for some reason conflated the two.
I totally agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I do have a quick question cos I think maybe I’m confused. You met a Muslim woman who was Sikh? I thought they were two different religions!
Yes, you are right. She was a former muslim who converted to Sikhism and I apparently confused myself and typed it out wrong.