1- Voting against trans rights isn’t the only type of transphobic behavior and getting people to vote in favor of trans rights won’t fully get rid of transphobia.
2- It seems like you’re the one that’s not understanding, if you focused less on tone policing and more on reading you’d see that their response makes perfect sense to yours, the tone doesn’t change or erase that.
3- Nobody who wasn’t transphobic to begin with needs to be convinced to not be it, queer people don’t need to perform niceness in order for them to deserve rights and presentability politics is the devil’s advocate of bigotry.
Just to step in with a personal anecdote in regards to point 3, and specifically “nobody who wasn’t transphobic to begin with needs to be convinced to not be it”:
About a year ago my wife’s cousin (17M) was visiting us for a party. I was showing him and his dad my gun collection, and the cousin noticed several stickers on my safe which reference support for the LGBT+ community.
When we happened to be alone out on the balcony later, he asked me about them, and what I thought about LGBT+ people and issues, and it was a great opportunity to educate someone not in that community. It is also something that he wasn’t going to get from his parents or friends, because his parents don’t know anything about LGBT+ issues, and his friends are all 16/17 year old males, and that means they all watch manosphere-light assholes like JonTron.
I’ve written about this issue elsewhere at more length, but the Left has largely ceded the young-unaligned-male demo to the Right when it comes to outreach and education, and I do think a lot of the problem is this attitude that “anyone who’s not bad is already an ally”, or put in the inverse, “if you’re not already an ally, you’re bad”. But in the case of young people specifically, we do need some willingness to have these discussions, because a Google search gives you facts about the LGBT+ community, sure, but it doesn’t give you humanization.
The rest of point 3 I agree with, but I do think it’s unfortunately common- even if understandable- to see people lash out at what are very possibly good-faith questions about LGBT+ issues because of how used we all are to questions just being the lead-in to some bigot asshole’s screed.
Not sure how that applies since you just gave me an example of curiosity, not transphobia.
And i don’t mind educating people who are genuinely curious.
From what I’ve observed, all too often curiosity about trans people (which comes from a place of ignorance) regularly is misread as transphobia (especially when the curiosity is worded in accidentally transphobic ways - a lot of cis people with little knowledge of trans people genuinely don’t have the right vocabulary, and that gets misinterpreted as transphobic rather than just a lack of knowledge). Questions about trans lives regularly get a hostile “it’s not my job to educate ignorant people, they should Google it” response. If @t3rmit3@beehaw.org had responded to their wife’s cousin with an angry “it’s not my job to educate you!”, the result would likely not have been as positive as the conversation they had.
I always approach questions about trans stuff with an initial assumption that it’s made in good faith and comes from a place of curiosity. Those acting in bad faith reveal themselves pretty quickly, in which case I shut the conversation down. But more often than not, people are ignorant but curious, rather than malicious and hateful. So I absolutely agree with t3rmit3 on that front. Very little beats the human touch of having a real conversation with someone.
Yeah, like you said: they tend to reveal their intentions pretty (thankfully).
So personally i don’t take the language used as the only clue to determine that nowadays.
What @frog said is spot on in regards to my wife’s cousin; the first thing he did when he saw the pride flag was go, “haha gay” because he’s and edgy teen. And when we were talking later, he absolutely sounded like a right wing anti-LGBT+ troll, because he didn’t have either the vocabulary or mindset to do otherwise. But he was asking questions earnestly.
There is tons of ‘casual transphobia’ in young male spaces (and casual bigotry in general), and someone has to be willing to wade into that bog if we want to pull those kids out of it. I’m not saying that has to be you or any other person in particular -not everyone can or should put themselves in that position- but if all transphobia is universally only met with hostility, even when the context of the conversation might otherwise hint that this is not someone who is a lost cause, it will drive those people further into the clutches of the Right.
That is why I brought up the lack of a Left-oriented outreach pipeline for young men; they’ve been ignored by the Left for long enough that their spaces are very hostile to LGBT+ people in general (looking at my fellow gamers), but we need to start clawing them back, and that has to start with not immediately treating them as lost causes worthy only of derision when they exhibit transphobia.
Many of them are just parroting the language and behavior of the spaces they occupy in order to fit in, not actively choosing or attempting to be transphobic.
Well said and i completely agree. My only gripe is with the people who think they’re in the place of forcing, already scared/tired/ill, etc. queer people to continously put their wellbeing aside to educate people who are ignorant or hateful, it’s 100% a choice and not an obligation, personal wellbeing comes first.
1- Voting against trans rights isn’t the only type of transphobic behavior and getting people to vote in favor of trans rights won’t fully get rid of transphobia.
We need laws to protect people who are trans from trans phobic behaviors and laws. Voting is how you accomplish that.
2- It seems like you’re the one that’s not understanding, if you focused less on tone policing and more on reading you’d see that their response makes perfect sense to yours, the tone doesn’t change or erase that.
I’m not policing. I’m suggesting a strategy to actually accomplish goals. Being aggressive towards people isn’t going to help even if the aggression is justified.
3- Nobody who wasn’t transphobic to begin with needs to be convinced to not be it, queer people don’t need to perform niceness in order for them to deserve rights and presentability politics is the devil’s advocate of bigotry.
This is how I know you didn’t actually read what I wrote, because. I explicitly said that the bigots can’t be turned and that people have every right to be angry over transphobia.
1- And how does that address what i just told you in the slightest? also no, voting isn’t how you accomplish that, what’s in the law or not barely stops people from changing their behavior.
2- Yes, you are. You don’t need to repeat your argument at me because i understood it just right the first time. Have you maybe considered that people are tired of being discriminated against, have feelings and might not be trying to educate anybody? not every rightfully angry response at transphobia is a failed attempt to calmly educate a bigot.
3- I did actually read what you wrote, just because you don’t like what’s being told to you doesn’t suddendly mean that we didn’t pay attention or didn’t understand you.
1- Voting against trans rights isn’t the only type of transphobic behavior and getting people to vote in favor of trans rights won’t fully get rid of transphobia.
2- It seems like you’re the one that’s not understanding, if you focused less on tone policing and more on reading you’d see that their response makes perfect sense to yours, the tone doesn’t change or erase that.
3- Nobody who wasn’t transphobic to begin with needs to be convinced to not be it, queer people don’t need to perform niceness in order for them to deserve rights and presentability politics is the devil’s advocate of bigotry.
Just to step in with a personal anecdote in regards to point 3, and specifically “nobody who wasn’t transphobic to begin with needs to be convinced to not be it”:
About a year ago my wife’s cousin (17M) was visiting us for a party. I was showing him and his dad my gun collection, and the cousin noticed several stickers on my safe which reference support for the LGBT+ community. When we happened to be alone out on the balcony later, he asked me about them, and what I thought about LGBT+ people and issues, and it was a great opportunity to educate someone not in that community. It is also something that he wasn’t going to get from his parents or friends, because his parents don’t know anything about LGBT+ issues, and his friends are all 16/17 year old males, and that means they all watch manosphere-light assholes like JonTron.
I’ve written about this issue elsewhere at more length, but the Left has largely ceded the young-unaligned-male demo to the Right when it comes to outreach and education, and I do think a lot of the problem is this attitude that “anyone who’s not bad is already an ally”, or put in the inverse, “if you’re not already an ally, you’re bad”. But in the case of young people specifically, we do need some willingness to have these discussions, because a Google search gives you facts about the LGBT+ community, sure, but it doesn’t give you humanization.
The rest of point 3 I agree with, but I do think it’s unfortunately common- even if understandable- to see people lash out at what are very possibly good-faith questions about LGBT+ issues because of how used we all are to questions just being the lead-in to some bigot asshole’s screed.
Not sure how that applies since you just gave me an example of curiosity, not transphobia. And i don’t mind educating people who are genuinely curious.
From what I’ve observed, all too often curiosity about trans people (which comes from a place of ignorance) regularly is misread as transphobia (especially when the curiosity is worded in accidentally transphobic ways - a lot of cis people with little knowledge of trans people genuinely don’t have the right vocabulary, and that gets misinterpreted as transphobic rather than just a lack of knowledge). Questions about trans lives regularly get a hostile “it’s not my job to educate ignorant people, they should Google it” response. If @t3rmit3@beehaw.org had responded to their wife’s cousin with an angry “it’s not my job to educate you!”, the result would likely not have been as positive as the conversation they had.
I always approach questions about trans stuff with an initial assumption that it’s made in good faith and comes from a place of curiosity. Those acting in bad faith reveal themselves pretty quickly, in which case I shut the conversation down. But more often than not, people are ignorant but curious, rather than malicious and hateful. So I absolutely agree with t3rmit3 on that front. Very little beats the human touch of having a real conversation with someone.
Yeah, like you said: they tend to reveal their intentions pretty (thankfully). So personally i don’t take the language used as the only clue to determine that nowadays.
What @frog said is spot on in regards to my wife’s cousin; the first thing he did when he saw the pride flag was go, “haha gay” because he’s and edgy teen. And when we were talking later, he absolutely sounded like a right wing anti-LGBT+ troll, because he didn’t have either the vocabulary or mindset to do otherwise. But he was asking questions earnestly.
There is tons of ‘casual transphobia’ in young male spaces (and casual bigotry in general), and someone has to be willing to wade into that bog if we want to pull those kids out of it. I’m not saying that has to be you or any other person in particular -not everyone can or should put themselves in that position- but if all transphobia is universally only met with hostility, even when the context of the conversation might otherwise hint that this is not someone who is a lost cause, it will drive those people further into the clutches of the Right.
That is why I brought up the lack of a Left-oriented outreach pipeline for young men; they’ve been ignored by the Left for long enough that their spaces are very hostile to LGBT+ people in general (looking at my fellow gamers), but we need to start clawing them back, and that has to start with not immediately treating them as lost causes worthy only of derision when they exhibit transphobia.
Many of them are just parroting the language and behavior of the spaces they occupy in order to fit in, not actively choosing or attempting to be transphobic.
Well said and i completely agree. My only gripe is with the people who think they’re in the place of forcing, already scared/tired/ill, etc. queer people to continously put their wellbeing aside to educate people who are ignorant or hateful, it’s 100% a choice and not an obligation, personal wellbeing comes first.
We need laws to protect people who are trans from trans phobic behaviors and laws. Voting is how you accomplish that.
I’m not policing. I’m suggesting a strategy to actually accomplish goals. Being aggressive towards people isn’t going to help even if the aggression is justified.
This is how I know you didn’t actually read what I wrote, because. I explicitly said that the bigots can’t be turned and that people have every right to be angry over transphobia.
1- And how does that address what i just told you in the slightest? also no, voting isn’t how you accomplish that, what’s in the law or not barely stops people from changing their behavior.
2- Yes, you are. You don’t need to repeat your argument at me because i understood it just right the first time. Have you maybe considered that people are tired of being discriminated against, have feelings and might not be trying to educate anybody? not every rightfully angry response at transphobia is a failed attempt to calmly educate a bigot.
3- I did actually read what you wrote, just because you don’t like what’s being told to you doesn’t suddendly mean that we didn’t pay attention or didn’t understand you.