I don’t usually have sufficient motivation to post much on any social media platform. This is rare for me. I am putting this out in the world in part hoping for some validation, in part hoping it sparks some kind of social action to save some semblance of privacy and dignity in this modern world.
Warning: this is long.
I just wrote an email to a recruiter withdrawing my interest in pursuing a job (it’s a recruiter hired by the hiring company). I am a software engineer with decades of experience who has been unemployed for almost a year with almost no interviews. I’m hungry for paying work. Yet. I did this. Below is the email I wrote, and it is hopefully self explanatory.
I think my career might be over - especially if the kind of process I experienced is now the standard for hiring. I want nothing to do with it.
I wrote this after multiple days of trying to set up my system for the “assessment”. I ended up having to install Windows 11 (I’m a Linux guy) because the assessment environment simply didn’t work. I tried FireFox, disabled plugins, tried two versions of Chrome - neither would work. It apparently had to be the Google version.
I upgraded an old version of Win 10 (because Microsoft pretty much forced it). Got it to work on Firefox for Windows.
Twice, mid-way through the assessment, it reset itself to square one. I didn’t try a third time. This assessment software monitored my face and would raise an alarm if I looked away. It controlled my microphone. It required full access to every aspect of the browser and had me do an alt-tab partway through this “test” in order to ensure I wasn’t using any other software. Insulting. Invasive. My equipment. My home.
---- the email ----8<----
First, I appreciate your understanding and that you gave me what information you have on how this software works. Now, the hard part. My disappointment will show in the text, and it is not directed at you or your company.
I’m inclined to cease pursuing this. I feel insulted by the process in the first place, but went through it understanding that we, as job seekers, have to accept compromises we would not otherwise accept because having a job is a fundamental requirement to literally survive and provide for our children.
However, the more I’m expected to change my personal, owned equipment and software in an invasive fashion just so some stranger can have 100% surveillance on my activities in my home in order to be considered for a job interview, the more insulted I become.
Granted, I’m unusual. I’ve dedicated myself to protecting my electronic privacy by installing malware and advertisement blockers on my phones, computers, tablets. I use VPN. I built my own home NAS because I am uncomfortable with placing all my personal, financial, and health records into “the cloud” (and being charged for the privilege). I am teaching myself how to use AI by downloading and running models in my home lab because I don’t want to give out my privacy and income to strangers.
I stopped using Windows at home years ago because I could not stand the way it was dictating to me how to run my computer and constantly seeking to part me from my money with distracting advertisements while siphoning everything about me back to their servers to better market to me. Worse, it was forcing me to buy new hardware in order to simply run the system after upgrades.
Here I am, faced with a stark choice. Debase my values for the sake of the possibility of a job with a company that apparently doesn’t consider applicants worthy of dignity, or remain unemployed - possibly forced to exit the career I love if everybody is doing this - and potentially fall into poverty.
If they’re doing this before they even talk to me, it tells me that as an employee I will have at minimum this same level of surveillance. Knowing this in the back of my mind will burn me out in under six months.
Unfortunately, I don’t think I could live with myself if I chose the first option, so I respectfully withdraw myself from this process. I’m a professional. I expect to be treated like one. If there are companies who are serious about hiring a professional, I’m all in. Please engage me.
Valid
How it would have gone for me:
“You need to install this Windows software for the assessment.”
“I don’t have Windows.”
“…”
“…”
“…”
“Bye bye.”
Well, as a .NET developer, until a few years ago, that hang-up would have been totally justified.
I kept windows in some form for .NET development until Core became viable. Even now I have to keep it around, even in hardware bootable form. VM is insufficient when windows is required to update the BIOS. (Thanks, Lenovo.)
Good on you. I turned down an interview at the first level because they asked me to download one program, I said I’d be happy to download anything they want if they bought the hardware and paid for my internet.
Haha I love that response you gave them
I do the same when people want me to download whatsapp. This is why we need unions.
If you have the means, or family/friends that can lend you some, please start your own small software business. The market doesn’t balance itself if all we got are the abusive giants. I’m working on it myself.
Small outlets are fundamentally reliant on working with big clients to earn enough money for a decent wage, so you’re not achieving anything by going it alone. In no sense are you “balancing” the market.
Me too, man. Let’s hope we both get somewhere with our businesses.
I’m an engineer with ADHD. If an interview tried to get me to use software that requires I not look away, they will be informed that the ADA requires they provide me with reasonable accommodation.
(My current employer does, and they get the high quality of work they deserve.)
Whoa! I don’t share i have ADHD, as I fully expect to be shit-canned immediately. How’d you pull that off? It’s crazy that he disability self disclosures include enough examples to cover half the living population, though.
I hid it initially, and then gradually let the mask slip while demonstrating my amazing engineer powers over the first year. An engineer with ADHD is like a pole dancer with one leg - at first one might think it’s a bad career choice, but you just watch me dance for a minute and then it’ll make sense.
If the interview process is inherently ableist, then I’d have nothing to lose by disclosing it immediately. Especially since HR generality doesn’t make the actual hiring decision.
In some respects, I feel ADHD works well with software engineering and hyperfocus can be a superpower. However, increasingly the barriers to entry explicitly require behavior that disqualifies ADHD at the door.
Asking me to give a concise, accurate, and confident answer in something I haven’t thought about in a year, under pressure, generally results in spectacular failure. Ten minutes after the meeting, however, I can recite nuances on the topic most people never consider. Too bad there’s nobody to hear it.
Honestly I have no idea why any country outside of the USA allows that spyware they call an OS.
I see jobs with interview requirements like this occasionally. I don’t bother with them. I doubt I even would have spent the time writing an email, except to convey briefly that the web page didn’t work.
You made the right choice. I was treated with more respect when I was flipping burgers in college.
Wow. respect.
how old are you and how do you plan to support yourself now?
someone I know was in a similar position. after a brutal 6 months of searching they landed a job. thankfully they had savings and health insurance to tide them through…
Old enough to be unemployed due to ageism. I started saving for retirement from my very first post college job. It still isn’t enough. Not because the math doesn’t work, but because other factors like two divorces and two houses “lost” along with years dealing with one spouse who didn’t understand money and another who embezzled $100k with no consequences cost me dearly.
I’m close enough I can go for a few years and take a lower paying job to bridge until social security… except that’s only paying out 60% starting the year before I am eligible. So, yeah… GEN X: Ignored, forgotten, and screwed over. Just another day.
I am also a software developer. The interview process in our industry has become increasingly offensive over the last 30 years. That started out with high-prestige companies who provided exceptional pay and benefits. Some people were willing to put up with that, so they mostly got away with it. Now most companies assume they have all the power and can demand whatever they want from applicants.
Refusing to participate is perfectly legitimate. It may keep you from finding a job, at least in this industry, but that may be better than giving up your self-respect for basic survival. And there are still decent software companies to work for, although they are hard to find. Changing careers is also a viable option.
Our overall economy is so broken in favor of the super rich and their corporations that individuals really do have very little power. Organized actions, of various types, give us some counter-leverage. Collective bargaining, strikes, and political efforts to push for better regulations all have the potential to improve things, at least in the middle- to long-term.
We all need to keep the big picture in mind while we do what we need to get by individually.
this kind of disaffected ‘we’ll get to it later’ politicking is what got us here in the first place. sucks to be u, CA
Yeah, I’ve had this type of interview lately. Not for software though. You install what probably might as well be a rootkit on your machine. They monitor your eyes through webcam. The slightest detection of your eyes looking away is an instant fail. That’s the gist of the process now.
Unfortunately for most people, they aren’t technical enough to know what they’re getting themselves into. They just follow the instructions.
Nobody is going to read the mountains of terms and conditions of all the services required to jump through along the application process. People are just trying to get a job to they can eat tonight.
No, we want you on our equipment because we can’t trust you to stay secure, virus and malware free. When you crack the screen or have a fan die, we want to leverage our warranties and parts to repair the equipment. We don’t want to give you the keys to our repos and kingdoms to have them delivered to the nearest person adding a keylogger to a fitgirl repack.
People have actually been found off-shoring their own work to China by installing remote access clients on their work machines.
Don’t get me wrong, there are asshole companies out there that want to use activity trackers to see what you’re doing, most don’t give a shit and track you by what you do. We don’t need monitoring software to tell if you’re working or that you’re not vibecoding, we can tell by your actual work.
If your corporation is running windows 11, you can’t be trusted to keep things malware free. If you’re a corporation, you should also respect true capitalist behaviour, and if they can make a profit offshoring, what difference does it make. If, however, you provide robust, *nix based equipment, follow a disciplined SDLC, and are not a corporation, then I might a couple of highly disciplined, experienced systems analysts with a GRC and privacy focus who would love to learn more about you.
Although you do open with the fact you don’t trust your people, so, probably not.
You cannot trust your employees to be security and IT conscious. They’re not trained in it. I’ve been in the field for over 30 years and that’s one the few things you can bet on.
My company gave me a ThinkPad with Ubuntu preinstalled.
You set and communicated a healthy boundary. I think your email clearly communicates your reasoning and expectations and hopefully the recruiter passes it along to the company itself so they can receive the feedback, or at the very least uses it to tailor what sort of opportunities they send your way.
If the company goes to those lengths to try to catch assessment cheaters, it’s not going to get better if you get hired. If they suspect you without having a reason, then they will always suspect you. You made the right choice.
IMHO, the response is a bit wordy, but I agree with where you’re coming from. You should consider trying to work for yourself, it may be very rewarding for you.
You should consider trying to work for yourself
How do you even start this?
Yes, I do tend to over explain and it does annoy people, especially my son. I have a near pathological need to make sure others understand the why. I’m working on it.
Been looking into Stoicism lately, and not explaining yourself (to people who don’t care or can’t comprehend) is one of the tenents - not wasting precious energy.
If it’s worth anything, I appreciate the level of detail in your explanation. It makes you more human and allows me additional points to empathize. Also, if I were a hiring manager and had the background on your approach to technology, I’d be much more inclined to hire you.
