What did you expect? We’re talking about one guy who might have lived over 2000 years ago. You’re not going to find his birth certificate and social security number.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence. And reading the article you yourself linked to, that probability seems to be pretty high.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence
For a person that is considered an actual god, we should expect more than “probable” existence. I think pointing out the lack of evidence for a supposed god is perfectly acceptable.
You’re missing the point or you’re being deliberately obtuse. Either way, nobody’s trying to prove that Jesus Christ existed in this thread (at least, nobody that is arguing in good faith - no pun intended). We’re talking about the real guy that MOST LIKELY really existed but, putting aside his supposed divine heritage, would have been basically a regular guy back then.
A regular guy who created three different movements in under 3 years, convinced multiple people to abandon their families and income for life with no power beyond words, who managed to somehow someway have the entire legal system in place not work properly, and was able to convince Pilot to not do the sensible thing which would be wipe out his followers.
Could you pull this off? With no money and influence could you go to say Mississippi, convince 12 men to abandon their wives/children/income, lead them on a suicide run, somehow manipulate the justice system to not give you a regular trial, yet shield all of your followers for decades after your death, and inspire two separate movements after you are dead…in under 3 years.
If a regular guy has this level of charisma I would be pretty impressed.
This happens regularly… They are called cults today… Their members also believe their Messiah is a messenger from (or literally is) god… And they get much more than 12.
Jim Jones started his church in 1954 and had enough followers to buy his own church building by 1955.
I don’t know the exact timeline on it but his faith healing garbage was a conscious effort to engender faith in his teachings and has been written about as being effective in less than a year.
Sorry. Did he die 6 months after he started his church? I didn’t ask if he had enough money to buy a building, tax free at the absurd cost of owning a building in the 50s. Really people making minimum wage could afford a house back then.
Worth mentioning that he ran the church for another 24 years and now it is gone. The historical Jesus claim is that he started the church, got people to join, six months later they were willing to do a suicide attack, and 20 centuries later they are still around.
You are welcome to back off on this. You are not going to find a single time in history, of the thousands of documented religions, where this happened.
Founder, suicidal cult, dead, and still around all in the span of half a year.
Occum’s razor. Every other religion that had any success had a founder who spent multiple decades keep it going building up the institutions needed. So what is more likely that Christianity is the one odd one out of thousands or it is the same? James was running a mystery cult centered around a fictional heavenly figure.
Look. You need to stop moving the goalposts. The post I replied to was about “could a person be charismatic enough to gain 12 followers.” The answer is yes.
Could a person do it in a short period of time? Yes.
How Jesus Became God covers that process. Early Christianity was very complicated and divergent. Some groups thought Jesus was just a guy, others that he was just a guy who was raised to divinity, and still others that he was divine from the start. And then even among those who thought he had some sort of divinity, not all of them agreed with the trinity idea. And then Gnositcs come along and have a whole different cosmology about everything.
The Council of Nicaea didn’t come up with anything on its own. It was an official stamp on what set of existing ideas were considered orthodox or not.
What did you expect? We’re talking about one guy who might have lived over 2000 years ago. You’re not going to find his birth certificate and social security number.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence. And reading the article you yourself linked to, that probability seems to be pretty high.
For a person that is considered an actual god, we should expect more than “probable” existence. I think pointing out the lack of evidence for a supposed god is perfectly acceptable.
You’re missing the point or you’re being deliberately obtuse. Either way, nobody’s trying to prove that Jesus Christ existed in this thread (at least, nobody that is arguing in good faith - no pun intended). We’re talking about the real guy that MOST LIKELY really existed but, putting aside his supposed divine heritage, would have been basically a regular guy back then.
A regular guy who created three different movements in under 3 years, convinced multiple people to abandon their families and income for life with no power beyond words, who managed to somehow someway have the entire legal system in place not work properly, and was able to convince Pilot to not do the sensible thing which would be wipe out his followers.
Could you pull this off? With no money and influence could you go to say Mississippi, convince 12 men to abandon their wives/children/income, lead them on a suicide run, somehow manipulate the justice system to not give you a regular trial, yet shield all of your followers for decades after your death, and inspire two separate movements after you are dead…in under 3 years.
If a regular guy has this level of charisma I would be pretty impressed.
This happens regularly… They are called cults today… Their members also believe their Messiah is a messenger from (or literally is) god… And they get much more than 12.
In six months?
Jim Jones started his church in 1954 and had enough followers to buy his own church building by 1955.
I don’t know the exact timeline on it but his faith healing garbage was a conscious effort to engender faith in his teachings and has been written about as being effective in less than a year.
Sorry. Did he die 6 months after he started his church? I didn’t ask if he had enough money to buy a building, tax free at the absurd cost of owning a building in the 50s. Really people making minimum wage could afford a house back then.
Worth mentioning that he ran the church for another 24 years and now it is gone. The historical Jesus claim is that he started the church, got people to join, six months later they were willing to do a suicide attack, and 20 centuries later they are still around.
You are welcome to back off on this. You are not going to find a single time in history, of the thousands of documented religions, where this happened.
Founder, suicidal cult, dead, and still around all in the span of half a year.
Occum’s razor. Every other religion that had any success had a founder who spent multiple decades keep it going building up the institutions needed. So what is more likely that Christianity is the one odd one out of thousands or it is the same? James was running a mystery cult centered around a fictional heavenly figure.
Look. You need to stop moving the goalposts. The post I replied to was about “could a person be charismatic enough to gain 12 followers.” The answer is yes.
Could a person do it in a short period of time? Yes.
Why do you insist on being insufferable?
That came later, first council of nicaea was where the thing with holy trinity was made.
How Jesus Became God covers that process. Early Christianity was very complicated and divergent. Some groups thought Jesus was just a guy, others that he was just a guy who was raised to divinity, and still others that he was divine from the start. And then even among those who thought he had some sort of divinity, not all of them agreed with the trinity idea. And then Gnositcs come along and have a whole different cosmology about everything.
The Council of Nicaea didn’t come up with anything on its own. It was an official stamp on what set of existing ideas were considered orthodox or not.
Literally everything about Jesus came later, though.
I expect Paul to be able to say literally anything about the guy. Which he can’t seem to do. It is called the Silence of Paul problem.