Yeah we’re in agreement, and apologies that my reply was a little meandering! It’s hard to reply without sounding contrarian sometimes.

Thanks for a good reply, and I hope you enjoy the weekend!

All of these things can be true at the same time.

Absolutely true: I’m also far-Left, and am a scientist working in the sustainability field.

I know I have complicated views on this (shaming her specifically), mostly because there’s not the same number of posts shaming CEOs and others making even worse choices.

The way I process it would be as if a major new corporation had a crime segment running nightly, but only showed young Black men who were arrested for violent crimes. Sure, it’s not technically incorrect - since they were each arrested - but it’s misleading in a way that should be examined, and people would rightly question why they’re not showing other folks doing the same things.

To be clear - I’m not equating the folks who share or make these memes with racists, but I am using it as an extreme example of ways in which outsized attention to certain celebrities/public figures can come across. I laughed at this and other memes, but I think it’s worth examining why we can name and shame Swift, but not CEOs and others who are more fundamentally responsible for inequities and climate destruction. I’m way-overanalyzing a meme here, since name recognition is doing most of the work (who would click on a meme with the name of some CEO they don’t recognize, versus Swift?), but I do think we could/should do more to drag some of the true ghouls out there into the light and start mocking them, in addition to the folks normally raked over the coals.

Also, I understand that part of that is the hypocrisy, but I’m reminded of what the great Norm MacDonald had to say about hypocrisy:

The comedian Patton Oswalt, he told me “I think the worst part of the Cosby thing was the hypocrisy.” And I disagree. I thought it was the raping. It’s my feeling most rapists are hypocrites. You don’t meet many that go “I like raping and I know it’s not politically correct but, by god” and people go “well, he’s not being a hypocrite and that’s the worst part!”

Seems likely it’s similar. Aquote from a book I think everyone should read has been stuck in my head for years:

In the years of its rise the movement little by little brought the community’s attitude toward the teacher around from respect and envy to resentment, from trust and fear to suspicion. The development seems to have been inherent; it needed no planning and had none. As the Nazi emphasis on nonintellectual virtues (patriotism, loyalty, duty, purity, labor, simplicity, “blood,” “folk-ishness”) seeped through Germany, elevating the self-esteem of the “little man,” the academic profession was pushed from the very center to the very periphery of society. Germany was preparing to cut its own head off.

By 1933 at least five of my ten friends (and I think six or seven) looked upon “intellectuals” as unreliable and, among these unreliables, upon the academics as the most insidiously situated.

Milton Sanford Mayer, They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933–45

For my bills? I do have student debt, but have a job that pays well enough I don’t have to stress about it. I do worry about others that aren’t as fortunate.

And if we can’t afford either, why are you arguing it should be free? If you’re saying you want something that you’re also saying is impossible, why not champion two impossible things?

Good luck trying to articulate your thoughts and positions in the future, because you’ve failed to do so thus far, and I’ve exhausted my patience…so I’m gonna bounce

Making it free for everyone is excellent, specifically because it removes the potential of “the consequences for the choice” of taking out loans.

If you’re operating under the assumption that we can only do one or the other, sure: free going forward is better. I just think that we need to make it retroactively free, too.

You’re not explaining why you think that, beyond wanting to punish people for taking out loans.

Your position is inconsistent, because you’re arguing they shouldn’t have needed to take out those loans.

Again: you’re saying people made mistakes, but I don’t think that’s precisely the case. The majority of student debt isn’t because of people going to incredibly expensive schools for useless majors, you know.

So free University only for majors you deem worthy? Or only for profit minded disciplines? MBAs yes, but art history no?

Besides, economic desperation makes people make poor choices, and I’d wager that most people taking on debt for education don’t consider it a poor choice. Often higher education is key to economic success, but given tumultuous economic conditions in the past decades…things haven’t panned out for everyone, which makes those decisions look worse in hindsight.

You can’t claim everyone with student loan debt has it because they’re a worthless hippie art student. The increase in the number of bachelor’s degrees made it more competitive to get jobs requiring those degrees, meaning people need to get them just to compete…so people wind up shackled with debt.

It’s free to be sympathetic to people who are in a tough situation, even if they bear some responsibility for it. We all do.

But…if you think free public university is a good thing…isn’t not giving loan forgiveness analogous to saying “folks should stay in jail for trumped up marijuana charges until it’s legal Federally”? IMHO people shouldn’t have these loans in the first place.

If we can’t afford loan forgiveness, we can’t afford free public university. We can simultaneously fix the problems of the past while trying to improve things for the future.

Seems like we won’t, but hopefully we both learned something.

Ok well there we go: I don’t think sex work is inherently “lame”, nor that it should be stigmatized.

I’ve never had sex for money, or paid for sex, but I don’t see why it should be illegal or shameful. I’ve watched plenty of porn that’s shameful because of the exploitation of folks, but there’s good porn out there that isn’t that. As for literally prostitution, and not the broader sex work label…some folks are too anxious to have sex without it, some people want to engage in really specific kinks, some people are just bored and want no strings attached sex.

Sex is as natural as eating, and I think being a good chef is something to be proud of.

You’re getting dragged in the discussion below, and while I think I understand your more specific points below, I’d like to offer some perspective on this general point instead of continuing down those lines.

Here you’ve set the tone by calling sex inherently shameful. Not being serious/dignified isn’t the same as shameful. For me, shame comes with some moral failing. I’m ashamed when I disappoint someone, or get angry for something petty, or act petty myself. Not because of being undignified. I’m not ashamed when I fart, that’s just my body. However, I am ashamed when I fart in a public place, because it’s smelly and few people deserve to suffer like that.

So my counterargument to your perspective here: sex isn’t inherently shameful, but it can be because of context. Banging too loud when having guests over is shameful: not because of being loud, but because of the lack of consent - being too loud when everyone around consents to that kind of behavior is fine. No shame if you’re in a place where everyone is hooking up, and everyone knows the walls are thin. That’s just fun. Not dignified, not serious, but fun. So the sex part isn’t the problem. Not inherently.

To the main point - if everyone would just be cool about sex work, I honestly think folks wouldn’t ascribe shame to participating in sex work. I’ve lived in small communities in the Amazon where there was essentially no shame associated with consensual non monogamy, outside of the religious folk. Different social structure and beliefs in that region made it much more open…so I heartily reject calling sex a shameful act. That’s too much moral baggage to ascribe to such a natural, zesty enterprise.

I don’t think it does much, but any tiny contribution to the fight against climate change is a good for the world, as is any slowing of the erosion of civil rights domestically, gutting of what remains of medicare/medicaid, etc.

I also know a GOP administration will be worse in terms of fighting against leftist movements in the streets, if only slightly. They’re definitely worse re: labor movements overall, again: even if only marginally.

So I’m not going to claim it’s a panacea, or even someone that will have notable effects, but I do think it matters at the margins, so the effort required is usually worth it, IMHO

Voting for the slightly less shit option makes it easier for the things we do in parallel to have a positive impact: direct action doesn’t get slowed down much by voting once a year or so.