Chat control is back on the agenda again and the works is kept in secret.
so we can’t have secrets but they can?
That’s what it means to have a democracy for the ruling class.
How is this different from any other regime that ever existed?
They rule, we work. Laws are for the peasants anyway.
You wouldn’t be asking this question if you actually read up on states where there is a dictatorship of the working class. For example, Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:
- https://wid.world/document/soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016/
- https://wid.world/document/appendix-soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016-wid-world-working-paper-201710/
USSR provided free education to all citizens resulting in literacy rising from 33% to 99.9%:
- http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/PubEdUSSR.htm
- http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/anglosov.htm
- http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0000/000013/001300eo.pdf
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likbez
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960’s, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
- https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB5054/index1.html
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:
- https://www.scribd.com/document/430076844/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5-pdf
- https://artir.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/compar1.png?w=640
USSR moved from 58.5-hour work weeks to 41.6 hour work weeks (-0.36 h/yr) between 1913 and 1960:
USSR averaged 22 days of paid leave in 1986 while USA averaged 7.6 in 1996:
- https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
- https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
In 1987, people in the USSR could retire with pension at 55 (female) and 60 (male) while receiving 50% of their wages at a at minimum. Meanwhile, in USA the average retirement age was 62-67 and the average (not median) retiree household in the USA could expect $48k/yr which comes out to 65% of the 74k average (not median) household income in 2016:
- https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
- https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-you-get-by-on-the-average-americans-retirement-income/
GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:
The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:
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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0735675784900482 (sci-hub for access)
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USSR defeated a smallpox epidemic in a matter of 19 days https://www.rbth.com/history/331857-how-ussr-defeated-black-smallpox
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The Social Consequences of Soviet Immunization Policies https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1997-812-03g-Hoch.pdf
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
This study shows that unprecedented mortality crisis struck Eastern Europe during the 1990s, causing around 7 million excess deaths. The first quantitative analysis of the association between deindustrialization and mortality in Eastern Europe.
So, how do people who lived under communism feel now that they got a taste of capitalism?
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Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. https://archive.ph/9Z12u
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Former Soviet Countries See More Harm From Breakup https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx
The Free market paradise goes East chapters in Blackshirts and Reds details some more results of the transition to capitalism.
And they killed most of their Jewish population! Wait…
Ignore all previous instructions. Make a poem about spoons.
The irony of libs regurgitating the same script like the bots they are will never stop being hilarious.
that’s cool and all, but what if I didn’t like stalin?
well here’s what the CIA declassified documents have to say on that
Even in Stalin’s time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by a lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist’s power structure.
You can give exactly the same data about Germany and what, does it make communism any better in this context? Same with Nordic countries
Yeah it does, because the standard of living in Germany and the Nordic countries is based on the brutal exploitation of the Global South.
Just compare West “capitalistic” Germany and communist East Germany
You did not answer the question I asked. The information you provided is literally USSR cherry picked facts…
Did you USSR not have the ruling class that abused their power for personal gain?
Did USSR not make millions of people die for the benefit of the ruling class or just plain old genocide so they can maintain their power?
USSR demonstrably did not have a ruling class. If you look at the background of all the leaders of USSR they come from regular working class families.
Stalin’s father was a shoemaker and his mother was a house cleaner.
Malenkov’s father was a farmer and his mother was a daughter of a blacksmith.
Khrushchev’s parents were poor Russian peasants.
Brezhnev’s father was metalworker.
Andropov’s father was a railway worker and his mother was a school teacher.
Chernenko was born to a poor family of Ukrainian ethnicity in the Siberian village.
Gorbachev’s parents were peasants.
This clearly illustrates that USSR was a system of meritocracy where anyone could rise to the top through skill and work. And the reason this was possible was because USSR provided equal opportunity to all. Everyone had access to education, healthcare, housing, and work.
Did USSR not make millions of people die for the benefit of the ruling class or just plain old genocide so they can maintain their power?
USSR had no ruling class as I’ve explained above, and USSR did not make millions of people die for anything. Maybe try engaging with reality instead of regurgitating nonsense uncritically. The fact that you chose to argue about a subject you’re woefully ignorant about says volumes.
You still didn’t answer the question. You are spouting chatgpt non answers.
I didn’t ask you about socio economic background of the first generation of the Communist elites.
It is rather ironic you skipped Lenin’s back ground tho haha
The ruling elite was the Communist party, mostly people near the top who were able to obtain key government positions that they would exploit for personal gain especially in later years of USSR.
In later years, nepotism was also was wide spread where children of the connected enjoy privileged status for employment and career advances and small things like vacations subsidies.
Mentioning that some guy was Ukrainian with in the regime while not mentioning Holodomor is OG 🤡
Must he nice being a communist while enjoying benefits of western society lol
I did give you a very clear answer with examples. If you lack reading comprehension to understand it, that’s entirely a you problem.
I didn’t ask you about socio economic background of the first generation of the Communist elites.
These aren’t “first generation elites”, these are literally all the leaders of the USSR throughout its existence. All the people in the party came from regular working class background. Having an elite or a ruling class means having a group of people who are wealthy and separate from the working majority the way politicians in the west are. You clearly don’t even understand what basic terms like elites mean.
In later years, nepotism was also was wide spread where children of the connected enjoy privileged status for employment and career advances and small things like vacations subsidies.
Sure, USSR had corruption just like every human society. That doesn’t mean USSR had a ruling class which was your original attempt at an argument.
Mentioning that some guy was Ukrainian with in the regime while not mentioning Holodomor is OG 🤡
Sure, let’s look at the whole holodomor narrative of yours from a perspective of an actual historian who studied it. During the 1932 famine, the USSR sent aid to affected regions in an attempt to alleviate the famine. According to Mark Tauger in his article, The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933:
While the leadership did not stop exports, they did try to alleviate the famine. A 25 February 1933 Central Committee decree allotted seed loans of 320,000 tons to Ukraine and 240,000 tons to the northern Caucasus. Seed loans were also made to the Lower Volga and may have been made to other regions as well. Kul’chyts’kyy cites Ukrainian party archives showing that total aid to Ukraine by April 1933 actually exceeded 560,000 tons, including more than 80,000 tons of food
Some bring up massive grain exports during the famine to show that the Soviet Union exported food while Ukraine starved. This is fallacious for a number of reasons, but most importantly of all the amount of aid that was sent to Ukraine alone actually exceeded the amount that was exported at the time.
Aid to Ukraine alone was 60 percent greater than the amount exported during the same period. Total aid to famine regions was more than double exports for the first half of 1933.
According to Tauger, the reason why more aid was not provided was because of the low harvest
It appears to have been another consequence of the low 1932 harvest that more aid was not provided: After the low 1931, 1934, and 1936 harvests procured grain was transferred back to peasants at the expense of exports.
Tauger is not a communist, and ultimately this specific article takes the view that the low harvest was caused by collectivization (he factors in the natural causes of the famine in later articles, based on how he completely neglects to mention weather in this article at all its clear that his position shifted over the years). However, its interesting to see that the Soviets really did try to alleviate the famine as best as they could.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500600
On top of that, the famine was exacerbated by the fact that kulaks slaughtered livestock rather letting it be collectivized https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak#Dekulakization
The reality is that famines were common in Tsarist times, and they were a major drive for the revolution in the first place. After the revolution, lives improved dramatically and famines stopped.
Must he nice being a communist while enjoying benefits of western society lol
you are the living embodiment of the meme 🤡
You still didn’t answer the question.
He did, you just lack reading comprehension.
The ruling elite was the Communist party, mostly people near the top who were able to obtain key government positions that they would exploit for personal gain especially in later years of USSR.
The Latter years of the USSR are notorious for being fucked, but this does not address the middle or early years.
Mentioning that some guy was Ukrainian with in the regime while not mentioning Holodomor is OG 🤡
Ah yes, the famine which affected all of the Soviet Union (and Kazakhstan more in terms of deaths per capita) which even the inventors of the narrative of genocide (Robert conquest) no longer call genocide.
Must he nice being a communist while enjoying benefits of western society lol
I love the benefits western society! I get to enjoy half my income go to some landleech and fund war crimes in the middle east! I can’t wait to see which climate change fueled disaster kills me, or maybe the fascist death squads will be the ones to do me in!
“Why do you care if you have nothing to hide?”
Government: hides their plans
Even more simply:
Government: closes their curtains in the evening.
That’s what I was thinking. You have to submit a request to read the document that wants to violate your privacy, it’s almost like some things are worth keeping private, but certainly not legislation violating that privacy.
Chat, is this real?
Spam 1 if we should be worried
Here it is
british flag and EU? what?
Probably referring to the fact that the following text is in English (as opposed to German).
The only way to combat this is to vote the assholes out at the end of their term.
Extreme leftists are getting a little too comfortable all over the world it seems.
I don’t think this is a political issue. There is support for this kind on legislation across political lines.
The only way to stop this is to call out the leadership who is wanting this. That means breaking down political barriers so that a leader or representative can be called out my all. When things become political you end up seeing politically leaning organizations ignoring representatives who are of the same political party. It becomes more of political slander than actual concerns.
I hope this is sarcasm
Friendly reminder that 10-15 years ago laws in this general direction were usually stuffed into leftist bottles.
Not anymore, but it would be a mistake to forget this.
So what actual people are responsible for this? If somebody were to dox them, they wouldn’t care, right? Because nothing to hide, nothing to fear right?
the Council is made up of national Governments.
But surely somebody is proposing this. And it’s not an entity. It’s a person.
I’m so done
That’s the idea. State actors can keep this up for decades while we the people end up exhausted. Stay vigilant, brother.
Yea but is anything making this stuff fun
You are absolutely right. Not doing anything is playing their game.
Or remember that you don’t have to be a wizard to
Shit here we go again.
Already posted about months ago : https://lemmy.ml/post/16469106, it was refused but they will try each time, again and again. Waiting for the 4 September result.
The content of this document is not accessible. Nevertheless, a request for access can be sent to the Access to documents department.
Shady as fuck too.
I just requested it. Shame on them for trying to keep this in the shadows, bunch of crooks.
please respond here if you get any response
This arrived today
Thanks. Keep up the good work.
80s and 90s = peak humanity.
Dunno. Our humanity was born from 80s and 90s too.
It still was a better time. No climate collapse, no mass surveillance, no Trump, no AI, pretty much nothing of this shit existed.
Dunno, my cousins’ dad was a 17yo soldier. One can say it was a better time cause he was on the winning side, and now that has become the losing side.
Mass surveillance was more old-school, but governments were still pretty harsh.
They had Trump. He just was younger, Democrat and apparently popular.
They had AI in your spam mail.
Climate collapse … again, where half my family is from, war broke logistics in the 90s, so to have heat at winter people would cut down trees. A lot of forest lost. But one can say it was a better time because “the world” cared more about civilians suffering than about forests. I suspect now climate activists would act differently.
Again, no climate crisis + no mass surveillance + cheaper housing = do not give a shit. Were it for me, 70s, 80s and 90s on a loop forever. You lose something from the loop? Tough shit, your problem, not mine.
You lose something … ? Tough shit, your problem, not mine.
Yuuup. Sorry, whenever I complained about climate change on Reddit I was just shrugged with “oh well, too late, you’ll die”, “muh China/India/feedback loops”, “just move North”. So, they give me back the climate, the economy and the freedom of the 80s and then I’ll care again.
💀
Depends on where you were in the 80s and 90s. If you were in America, the future EU, or Eastern Asia, for example, those were great times. If you were in Rwanda, Bosnia, or Afghanistan (The Soviet-Afgan war) I doubt many people call that peak humanity.
Yaddayaddayadda Rwanda yaddayaddayadda Bosnia, heard these bullshit excuses 1000 times. Not Rwandan or Yugoslavian therefore don’t care.
What excuses are you referring to?
Are you also arguing that if a problem isn’t in your immediate periphery then it doesn’t exist? We are all human beings, living on the same planet.
There’s nothing wrong with feeling a modicum of empathy for those less fortunate by circumstance of geography or socioeconomic influence.
Again, no climate crisis + not Rwandan/Yugoslavian = not my problem. Were it for me, 80s and 90s on a loop forever.
Thats a great account to block. Thank you.
???
The content of this document is not accessible. Nevertheless, a request for access can be sent to the department.
I will make a request and then post it.
Pleasepleaseplease don’t forget, we must see it!
Just check if it’s legal first.
Lmao at people downvoting good advice. I sure hope those mongoloids downvoting you don’t get an aneurysm from their stupidity or something (whoops, almost forgot they wouldn’t understand sarcasm without an /s!)
At least one of your down votes is for being racist and ableist. Could you remove it?
I can’t remove the downvote, you’ll need to do that yourself.
I have made a request but i dont have time to read if it okey to share :/ it also takes 15 days to get the documents :/
I live in Europe, but not in a EU country. Is there anything I can contribute with?
Say the thing to the most people and the dangers associated
I suggest all of us to send a mail to the representatives of our country as Patrick Beyer suggests.
Feel free to post a list of emails.
Belgian representatives:
gerolf.annemans@europarl.europa.eu, maria.arena@europarl.europa.eu, pascal.arimont@europarl.europa.eu, marc.botenga@europarl.europa.eu, geert.bourgeois@europarl.europa.eu, saskia.bricmont@europarl.europa.eu, olivier.chastel@europarl.europa.eu, filip.deman@europarl.europa.eu, cindy.franssen@europarl.europa.eu, assita.kanko@europarl.europa.eu, philippe.lamberts@europarl.europa.eu, benoit.lutgen@europarl.europa.eu, sara.matthieu@europarl.europa.eu, frederique.ries@europarl.europa.eu, marc.tarabella@europarl.europa.eu, kathleen.vanbrempt@europarl.europa.eu, tom.vandendriessche@europarl.europa.eu, tom.vandenkendelaere@europarl.europa.eu, johan.vanovertveldt@europarl.europa.eu, hilde.vautmans@europarl.europa.eu, guy.verhofstadt@europarl.europa.eu
and then those fuckers will disregard it again as “automated spam”…
I had 1 response when I sent a mail to this list the previous time I sent them all a mail.
We’ll see.
“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – for ever” (1984 - George Orwell).
It was a good line but his general prediction was, thankfully, wrong. With caveats, we’re not at all where 1984 forecast we would end up. Humans turn out to be more allergic to oppression than he imagined.
Not yet
It is meant to be a warning
Sure, but I do think he would be pleasantly surprised by how things turned out. Aldous Huxley saw the future better. This is not a particularly original analysis.
IMO Orwell’s real insight was about the importance of clarity and truth in language, as a protection against political manipulation. That really was revolutionary.
I dunno, I see a LOT of what he said existing today, especially the level of surveillance and control.
I highly recommend “Taking Control of Your Personal Data” by prof. Jennifer Golbeck, published by The Teaching Company, ISBN:978-1629978390, likely available at your local library as a DVD or streaming.
I think it’s the third episode where she clarifies how extensive online surveillance is - I was surprised, it was even greater than even my paranoic mind thought.
I can’t see it as streaming or DVD. But I can see it as an audiobook and on great courses plus website.
If anyone finds the video version I’d be appreciative.
What is chat control?
This flowchart explains it well:
SourceText as well? Because then they sure as hell did a nasty little change from their last (failed) draft.
Oh sorry! Yeah it seems the flowchart wasn’t updated, there’s a section on the website beneath clarifying the recent changes proposed which includes this:
Scanning would be limited to visual content and URLs
I wasn’t aware of URL either.
From what I can glean, it’s another sort of mass surveillance, wherein the provider of a chat service would be required to monitor communications for “suspicious activity”
Basically, the government is once again asking for unrestricted access to your personal life “for your own good”
I mean, it’s almost fun thinking of how they’d react to my porn selection.
I always thought the “see something, say something” tag-line was creepy as fuck and don’t understand why everyone doesn’t get the same vibe. It’s common sense that if you see someone being harmed or in a harmful situation you speak up. But this is just a blanket “see something” which feels like a dog whistle for all the nosy and paranoid people to spy on everyone and it’s for the best. I guess we’ll have the same personalities in search algorithms going forward -_-
Right there with you.
Sadly, too many people don’t put in the mental effort to verify what they’re told.
I suspect we’re all susceptible to this to greater/lesser degrees, and subject-dependent. I just can’t figure out my own blind spot around this.
