As the title states I am confused on this matter. The way I see it, the USA has a two party system and in the next few weeks they’re either going to have Trump or Harris as president, come inauguration day. With this in mind doesn’t it make sense to vote for the person least likely to escalate the situation even more.

Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election and then who knows what crazy stuff he will allow, or encourage, Israel to get away with.

I really don’t get the logic. As sure nobody wants to vote for a party allowing these heinous crimes to be committed, but given you’re getting one of them shouldn’t you be voting for the one that will be the least horrible of the two.

Please don’t come at me with pro-Israeli rhetoric as this isn’t the post for that, I’m asking about why people would make such choices and I’m not up for debate on the Middle East, on this post, you can DM me for that.

Edit: Bedtime here now so will respond to incoming comments in the morning, love starting the day with an inbox full 😊.

Edit 2: This blew up, it’s a little overwhelming right now but I do intent on replying to everybody that took the time to comment. Just need to get in the right headspace.

  • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
    3310·
    2 months ago

    You know how you can trick a stupid fucking child into doing what you want by presenting them a false choice of two alternatives you’re happy with? “Do you want to go to bed now or after one more show?”

      • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
        185·
        2 months ago

        Just because you can’t stop something doesn’t mean you have to participate in it. But if you wanted to do something about it: these weapons come from this country and they have to get there in trucks traveling on roads to ports that load them on ships. And it’s not like there’s not a value to making genocide come with electoral consequences…

          • Count042@lemmy.ml
            72·
            2 months ago

            You can chose not to vote for a party actively committing the literal worst crime in the world.

            • verdigris@lemmy.ml
              14·
              2 months ago

              No you can’t. Because we live under a system where one of them is going to be in power after the election, and every possible voter shares equal responsibility in the outcome.

              • Count042@lemmy.ml
                4·
                2 months ago

                We either live in a democracy where all votes matter, or we live in an oligarchy where we get to choose from choices presented to us.

                Did you vote for Harris in the primary?

                Was Biden illegally the only candidate on the ballot in some States where there were other contenders in the primary that met the requirements to be on the ballot?

                I’m not morally responsible for things outside of my control in the same way as I’m not responsible for the sins of my father.

                You want to try and make an argument that shove responsibility for a genocide that you’re fine with being complicit in, you’re going to need more than 2 sentences.

        • TheDoozer@lemmy.world
          511·
          2 months ago

          But if you wanted to do something about it: these weapons come from this country and they have to get there in trucks traveling on roads to ports that load them on ships.

          We are discussing voting, though. That’s a bit tangential, because you can vote or not vote and still commit acts of… resistance…

          And it’s not like there’s not a value to making genocide come with electoral consequences…

          If you otherwise would have voted Dem against the Republicans, who are as bad or worse when it comes to the specific issue you’re punishing the Dems for, you are hurting one group committing genocide by helping one who commits and wants to commit even more genocide.

          All under the mistaken belief that by refusing to vote for the group you would otherwise vote for, you will get them to move Left. But if the Dems lose to the VERY right wing party, if the voting shows that Americans favor more right-leaning policies, they would move to gain the votes of the people who actually voted.

          The reality is, refusing to vote is still a choice. As long as you are an adult who can legally vote in the US election, you are partly responsible for the results of the election. You don’t get to wash your hands of it. Choosing to abstain because you don’t want to partipate out of moral self-righteousness is saying your soapbox is more important than the lives affected by your choices, from the Palestinians to the Ukrainians, immigrants to LGBTQ. Nobody is more important than your ability to say “I didn’t vote for a party that commit genocide.”

          • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
            125·
            2 months ago

            All under the mistaken belief that by refusing to vote for the group you would otherwise vote for, you will get them to move Left.

            Don’t project your dumb shit on me

            The reality is, refusing to vote is still a choice.

            wooooooooow no shiiiiiiiiiit

            You mean I’m exercising agency right now? You don’t saaaaaaaayyyyyyy.

            Choosing to abstain because you don’t want to partipate out of moral self-righteousness

            Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds. “Virtue signalling” you say?

            You’re a nazi. You’re giving material support to the perpetrators of a genocide. You’re trash. Diminishing basic morality as a vice just like any other fucking 8chan fascist. Trash.

            Smirking fucking nazi invoking “the lives affected by your choices” and “washing your hands” like the worst crime in history isn’t hanging behind you as you say that shit.

            You’re fucking trash.

            • Count042@lemmy.ml
              51·
              2 months ago

              TheDoozer@lemmy.world is not a Nazi, silly. They’re a liberal, and liberals are good, dontcha know?

              Because morality is defined by what you believe, not your actions, so of course they’re good. Actively participating in a genocide doesn’t make them evil because they believe the right things.

    • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
      911·
      2 months ago

      The difference is that there are real, material differences between the actions the candidates take. It’s not a fair choice, but it isn’t false either, and choosing not to go along won’t give you a better outcome

      • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
        165·
        2 months ago

        The difference is that there are real, material differences between the actions the candidates take.

        NO THERE FUCKING AREN’T. And if you believe that, you completely went to brunch when Trump left office and don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

        • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
          612·
          2 months ago

          I can say the same about you. Putting “no there aren’t” in all caps and adding profanity and personal insults doesn’t make it more true, but it does make people remember that a block button exists for the kind of person that uses things as disgusting as a genocide as an opportunity to troll. I do not think that anyone who both has paid any attention to the past 8 years and is arguing in good faith can possibly support that conclusion.

          • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
            82·
            2 months ago

            Deeply maddening watching people who materially support genocide complaining about people “playing the genocide card”

            And you think there’s a difference between you and the fascist party?

          • Count042@lemmy.ml
            41·
            2 months ago

            You’re literally simping FOR THE WORST CRIME IT IS POSSIBLE TO COMMIT!

            It’s not a card.

            It’s obvious you would use the same style arguments as a Democrat in the 1880s.

            • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
              22·
              2 months ago

              I am not simping for anything. I firmly believe Trump would be far worse for genocide (he has literally said that he thinks Israel should “finish the job” with regards to the war in Palestine, and when he was president, he was incredibly supportive of Netanyahu, and proposed a “peace plan” that was actually just carving up Palestine into a bunch of little pieces that could never constitute a viable state and giving Israel control of the paths between, effectively wishing to formalize Israeli control of the entire region) The only reason anyone can suggest he wouldnt be without getting laughed out of the room is that he happened to get lucky enough to not have the current escalation of Israel’s genocide happen during the time when he was president. From my point of view, any action that brings him closer to getting back in power is asking to throw gasoline on a genocidal fire, and saying that one’s motive for doing so is being against genocide is sickening in the kind of way that it would be if you saw someone suggest that Hitler should have won ww2 because of all the evil stuff that Winston Churchill was responsible for. Consider for a second what people making your argument look like, from that lens.

              • Count042@lemmy.ml
                1·
                2 months ago

                Fucking press the goddamn enter button. Do you have any idea how painful quoting you to respond on a phone is?

                proposed a “peace plan” that was actually just carving up Palestine into a bunch of little pieces that could never constitute a viable state and giving Israel control of the paths between, effectively wishing to formalize Israeli control of the entire region)

                What do you think the situation is now?

                From my point of view, any action that brings him closer to getting back in power is asking to throw gasoline on a genocidal fire,

                What practical changes do you think that Trump will make that could speed things up?

                What actions do you actually think Biden is taking to slow things down.

                From my point of view, any action that brings him closer to getting back in power is asking to throw gasoline on a genocidal fire, and saying that one’s motive for doing so is being against genocide is sickening in the kind of way that it would be if you saw someone suggest that Hitler should have won ww2 because of all the evil stuff that Winston Churchill was responsible for. Consider for a second what people making your argument look like, from that lens.

                This is the wrong analogy.

                The analogy that you are arguing is to vote for Gregor Strasser as an moderating influence on the Nazi Party.

                Consider for a second what people like making your argument look like, from that lens.

                I’m impressed you are aware of the intentional genocide of 4 million Indians caused by Churchill. I am not impressed by your apparent lack of awareness of other lessons from that same time period.

                I’m also not impressed by people that believe they can protect their outgroup by backing someone happy committing genocide.

                The Democratic party has long signaled it would be happy to throw out the T to protect the LGB. Those that think it would stop there need to re-read this poem:

                First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
                • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
                  2·
                  2 months ago

                  There is quite a lot Trump could do to speed things up. He could, for one thing, send American troops to assist Israel on the ground; I have concern that he might do such, because Israel has increasingly been dragging other countries in the region into this, notably Iran, and Trump pursued a policy towards that country during his term in office that very well could have led to war had things gone slightly worse. Given his support for Netanyahu, whose government has itself been tempting fate of late by engaging in back and forth missile strikes, and his disregard for the consequences of attacks against Iran, I have serious fears that he might give Israel a green light to pursue a full scale war with that country, by promising to commit US forces in the event of such a thing.

                  At a lesser degree, he also could simply increase US military aid to Israel beyond the current level, and end what efforts (insufficient by a country mile but still better than their absence would be) have been made by the US to convince Israel to limit its actions, such as the recent threats to cut some of its military aid if Israel does not allow more food aid across Gaza. He appears to actively dislike Muslim populations, as seen by his efforts as president to ban travelers from Muslim majority countries, so it strikes me as rather unlikely that he would do anything, even something basic like that, to assist a Muslim majority country like Palestine against the wishes of one of his allies.

                  Also for the record, I do not think that I am simply protecting “my outgroup” in opposing him. I am of the view that he, (or more importantly, the fascistic movement that he has grown around him, of which Trump himself is the leader, but which may persist even after he is gone), presents an existential threat not just to myself and those whom I know, but to you, to everyone in the country, to everyone in the numerous countries who he seems actively hostile to (including but not limited to Palestine as I have said, and Iran, as I was saying earlier, and Ukraine), and to a lesser extent, to the future of every single person on this planet. That may sound a bit extreme, but we are talking about making a narcissistic old man showing signs of mental decline and known for lashing out at things that anger him the commander in chief of a nuclear armed state, we are talking about putting someone who does not seem to believe in climate change at the head of the world’s largest economy at a time when getting carbon emissions down is critical to keeping the planet livable in the future, and we are talking about putting the country with the world’s largest military budget in the hands of a person who idealizes fascists, has attempted to maintain power despite a previous election loss, and has a following composed to a large degree of racists and religious zealots.

                  I am not saying that I worry about what Trump will do as hyperbole, or to justify what the current dem administration has done in arming Israel while it bombs and shoots civilians, I am saying that I worry about what he will do, because thinking about it quite literally keeps me up at night and has quite literally given me actual panic attacks within recent weeks upon seeing the prevalence of his support in polls and among my coworkers.

                  I do not think the democrats are actually “willing to throw out trans people” the way you seem to suggest at the end there. I dont even think that they are happy with what their “ally” in Israel is doing. I think they are a fragile “everything that isn’t the R’s” alliance of much of the right and what passes for the left here that includes both LGBT people and their allies, and conservative types who never wanted them in their party in the first place but arent quite extreme enough for the republicans, who are sort of mashed together in a broad coalition that as a result has no real collectively agreed upon ideology and doesn’t have the guts to rock the boat by withholding military aid to a country traditionally seen as an ally, even though that country really deserves to have that aid cut right now. Their vague compromises of positions do not really align with mine on many if not most things, especially economic and foreign policy, and I resent that they stay just barely to the left of the republicans to get the support of the left while offering it little but scraps. I do not like them, except maybe a few on the leftmost edge. But we (or at least I, I guess I’ve just assumed you were probably also American if youre invested in our election but I guess with our international influence that doesnt actually mean much) live under a system that guarantees that if they dont win, Trump will, and when he and his cult look so startlingly similar to the fascists of history, just before they succeed in subverting the systems that constrained them, not voting for them is a luxury that I do not think that I or any of us in this country really have.

                  • Count042@lemmy.ml
                    1·
                    2 months ago

                    I’m making dinner right now, and won’t have the time to respond until tomorrow. However, I will say that I appreciate your obviously thought out (even if I disagree with it) response, and not knee-jerk calling me a Russian stooge.