[alt text: a screenshot of a tweet by @delaney_nolan, which says, “Biden/Harris saw this polling and decided to keep unconditionally arming Israel”. Below the tweet is a screenshot from an article, which states: “In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.”]
I blame the people who voted for trump, personally. I’d be happy to watch the leopards eat their faces, but unfortunately we’re all stuck with them.
Also a fair response. How the hell did a rapist and convicted felon win the popular vote?
People are stupid and value in group solidarity more than anything else.
The only way forward is to make them feel like a member of a better group, or violence.
I’ll remember how this was all Kamala’s fault when Trump starts rounding people up. I’m sure it will bring me great comfort. I’m also sure it will bring great comfort to the people of Palesine because Trump DEFINITELY isn’t going to keep arming Israel, and we know he’s way more susceptible to public pressure than Harris would have been.
I’ll also accept cursing Trump voters, as it is obvious that they will never be allies.
Source please? I’d like to share the poll stats with a friend
Sure thing. This the source for this report: https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/memos/joint-resolutions-of-disapproval-needed-to-block-record-weapons-sales-to-israel?rq=yougov
Here’s another one from around the same time: https://www.commondreams.org/news/harris-arms-embargo-israel
Gentle reminder: changing her stance on the Gaza genocide was the “damned if you do” side of the trap that she didn’t go for.
Gentle idea: maybe think a few moves ahead. Even the conservatives were.
And Trump will be better for Palestinians how exactly? Anyone who prefers inane grandstanding instead of picking the lesser evil (no matter the topic) is a moron. That’s how politics work. The ideal candidate doesn’t exist and will never exist. If you ever come across one who 100% mirrors every single one of your opinions, get your head examined.
This exactly
Especially considering trump’s opinion on them and Israel’s stance on the election (wanting a trump victory) those should have been major red flags about a trump victory if you cared about Palestinians.
Voting the lesser evil is often how politics works. You pick the candidate you yu hate the least and try to mobilize more people in the future to get the policies you want.
Some background on why exactly Israelis were unhappy with Biden/Harris:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-israelis-massively-favor-trump-over-harris-in-us-election/
The Israeli public should have realized that Biden actually helped them by not agreeing to every one of Netanyahu’s whims, yet here we are.
I’ve seen far too many people parrot uneducated talking points like “America is arming Israel unconditionally”, which has been very much not the case under Biden. Why are people ignoring that he, just to name one example, withheld arms deliveries and threatened more restrictions unless more aid shipments were allowed into Gaza and the humanitarian situation there improved? I’m generally pro-Israel, even though I detest Netanyahu, I believe that the wars against Iran’s proxies are justified (Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis all attacked first without provocation and none of them are anything other than murderous terrorist groups), but I have no issues with these kinds of demands.
I fear that without Biden/Harris, the sparring match between Israel and Iran might get much more heated than it is already, potentially even escalating into an all-out war. Trump has the potential to cause a great deal of instability in the entire region (which would impact the rest of the world as well) and dramatically increase the suffering of ordinary Palestinians, Lebanese and Israelis (as well as potentially Iranian civilians as well) by antagonizing Iran, by removing demands from the Israeli government to improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza, by performing stupid stunts similar to his administration’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli territory (which will only inspire terrorist attacks and hostile acts from Iran), pulling back on pressure on the Houthis (because Putin might demand it), etc. pp.
World politics are messy, but at least under Biden, one could always assume that there was a reasonable, experienced politician surrounded by knowledgeable experts trying their best. They didn’t always succeed and even where they did, the results were often imperfect, because we are not living in a perfect world, but there was a certain amount of reliability that one could count on. The second Trump term on the other hand will be a severely cognitively declining Trump surrounded by sycophant yes-men stumbling his way through and creating a new idiotic crisis every week, this time without the kind of “old-school” Republicans in key positions that prevented Trump from following his worst instincts the last time around. This applies to both the current wars in the Middle East and every other aspect of foreign and domestic policy.
And taking people’s votes for granted worked how exactly?
Voter turn out was much lower than 2020 and 2016 just like this poll predicted.
Voter turn out was much lower than 2020 and 2016 just like this poll predicted.
Say what? Voter turnout in 2016 was 60%, in 2020 it was 67%, and in 2024 it was 65%.
you don’t have to convince me, friend. The fact is, winning a national election involves building a coalition with people that you don’t see eye-to-eye with 100%. The Dems don’t have a great coalition to begin with - if they win their highly-educated base and nobody else, they lose the election 100% of the time. They have to win over other people, mostly the very few groups of undecided voters. And in this election, it was clear that one of the few undecided groups available were Arab-Americans that cared a whole lot about what has been happening on the West Bank. And Harris did fuck-all to court those voters, so they decided to stay home.
Arab-Americans
0.639% of the US population. This is a tiny minority of no relevance to American politics. Trump has 51% of popular votes already, not that this matters, because the districts that carry Trump to victory have few voters with this kind of background. Arab Americans could not have changed the outcome of this election, even if 100% had voted for Harris.
That 0.639% of the population actually has a lot of them in a critical swing state that helped Biden win 2020. Harris lost Michigan by less than 85K votes, they could have made the difference.
Okay, how about the 34% of voters in PA as mentioned in the OP? Or the black Americans who said Gaza was important to them?
The quote is deliberately misleading by leaving out that they were only asking Democrats and independents. It also doesn’t mention that it (leading questions and all) was commissioned by the Institute for Middle Eastern Understanding Policy Project, which is a self-proclaimed pro-Palestinian group that opposed protections of Jewish Americans from antisemitism. Hardly an unbiased entity.
The war against Hamas ranks 15th among all issues to American voters. It’s not entirely unimportant, but don’t kid yourself by making the unfounded claim that it had any significant influence on this election.
How does the IMEU oppose protection against antisemitism, specifically
Here’s the initiative:
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
Here’s how the organization reacted to it:
https://imeu.org/article/imeu-policy-analysis-9-ihra-definition-silences-speech-for-palestinian-righ
2.1% of Michigan, and Harris could really use an extra 2.1% in Michigan right now.
Not really, without Pennsylvania Michigan doesn’t matter unless nearly every other swing state goes for her, and they don’t look like that’s even a possibility.
126k Arab-Americans living in PA. As of reporting right now, Harris is losing PA by 152k votes. Obviously this doesn’t clearly indicate that this single issue would swing the election in her favor, but I wouldn’t call that “a tiny minority of no relevance to American politics”.
And the Jewish voting population of PA is more than three times that. Now, that hardly means that they’ll all vote for Isreal, but it does mean that how that group breaks has a far more outsized impact and why Haris was focused so much on things that both sides can generally agree with like conditional aid.
I would have much preferred an actual hardline leftist stance of course, but at the end of the day Gaza does not seem to have played a significant part in this election.
Sure, but I would argue a much larger chunk of that Jewish voting population is firmly in the Democratic base, and may have voted for her either way. Only one party is supporting antisemitism, after all.
It was high enough on their list to cause her to lose.
I steadfastly refuse to accept an apology on behalf of single-issue voters. Those abstentions and/or third party protest votes got us here. Anyone who refused to coalesce around (or at least hold their nose and vote for) the biggest “not Trump” candidate was failing to see or even acknowledge the bigger picture and larger threat. And now we all have to pay for that.
The electoral votes in a state go to the single candidate with the most votes. “Not Trump” was not a candidate. Furthermore, a third party candidate was never going to win. So, I will absolutely blame these so-called “allies” as I find them to be worse than the people who voted for Trump (at least they were honest about what they were doing).
I sincerely hope there is a future election where they have learned something from this. In the mean time, good luck everyone.
In the Weimar Republic, the Social Democrats (SPD) were the largest party as late as 1930, and had control thanks to a coalition with centrists.
In 1931, the Communists of Germany (KPD) – who had long taken offense at the compromises of the SPD – caucused with the Nazis to topple the Prussian government and remove the SPD from power, believing that Nazi rise would accelerate the collapse of capitalism and would trigger a “German October,” a proper communist revolution that would eliminate the Nazis and solve the shortcomings of the SPD.
On April 1, 1933, the Executive Committee of the Communist International stated:
Despite the fascist terror, the revolutionary upturn in Germany will inexorably grow. The masses’ defense against fascism will inexorably grow. The establishment of an openly fascist dictatorship, which has shattered every democratic illusion in the masses and is liberating the masses from the influence of the Social Democrats, is accelerating the tempo of Germany’s development towards a proletarian revolution.
They were… incorrect. Their gamble cost 85 million lives, and the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union can be traced back to the knock-on effects of the war. Accelerationism is creating a monster to defeat an enemy you cannot, then being startled to discover you can’t defeat the monster either, and then blaming your original enemy for the product of your own hubris. No matter how you justify it, no matter what issues drive you, refusing to find common ground and build coalitions against the fascists helps nobody but the fascists.
I sincerely hope there is a future election where they have learned something from this. In the mean time, good luck everyone.
Given you’re expecting an apology instead of giving one, nothing was learned apparently.
this is where i’m at. Maybe instead of loudly shouting for months that people should just get over the genocide and hold their nose and vote for Harris, Harris and the Dems should have been working to convince Americans that she would actually work on the issues that people care about? Americans are feeling like things keep getting more expensive and while their wages stay the same - what was Harris doing to address that? What was she suggesting that didn’t feel like a band-aid on the problems with our top-heavy economy? Some stayed home because of the genocide, but more than that, Americans just weren’t convinced that Harris would do anything to improve their economic situation.
Americans just weren’t convinced that Harris would do anything to improve their economic situation.
Why would they? She never proposed anything specific AFAIK except like 1 week before the election after early voting was already over. If she hadn’t avoided taking any policy positions except unconditional aid to israel, lower proposed tax rates for the rich than even Biden was proposing, continued fracking, no improvements to healthcare, and more lethal military/border while avoiding talking about abortion for months, maybe people would have reason for some hope for improvement.
How many Americans know about proposals about things like tax credits for parents or plan to expand medical care coverage under medicare (or was it medicaid?) to at-home care except the small percent who follow that kind of news.
I apologize for nothing. I didn’t vote for genocide, the stripping of trans rights, the building of cop cities, the placement of Republicans in the candidate, increased hostilities on the border. I have nothing to apologize for.
You, on the other hand, voted for all of those things and STILL lost. Why? Because those are right wing policies, and Republicans are right wing. If the policies are right wing, the Republicans win. That’s how its always been. Not that hard to wrap your brain around.
We painstakingly spelled it out for you in slow motion for a year, and you kept your head lodged firmly up your master’s ass.
So quite the opposite, I wouldn’t accept the apology you lack the self awareness to extend me.
If everyone who voted for Harris voted for 3rd Party instead, the Electoral College shows Trump still would have won.
I went third party.
Frankly, with what I have seen, I find it hard to believe that Stein didn’t even get 1% of the vote. Massive organizations went all in on Green. Anyway.
That said, you need to remember that for every disenfranchised Democrat who voted third party, 2-5 disenfranchised Democrats simply didn’t show up.
Why is that?
Because instead of spending a year pushing the DNC left and going to war with Republicans, all the Blue MAGAs went after undecideds and berated them into apathy.
My reputation points on this site are -391. Why? Because I spent the past year calling out that the Biden/Harris neo-conservative policies were going to disenfranchise Democrats and win Trump the election.
What response did I get? Overwhelmingly I was told that Biden had a perfect presidential record, his age wasnt a big deal, he was going to the general election, and he was definitely going to win. Then when everyone who piled up on me ended up wrong about that, and I continued to say we could not accept Harris, we needed to get someone who would court people on the Left, not someone who would court Republicans, all I got bombarded with is “BuT TrUmP!”
Counting still isnt quite done yet, but Google says we are at 140,999,052 votes. The adult population of the United States is estimated at 335,893,238.
The majority of this country does not support Trump.
The majority of this country had noone to vote for, and were berated into silence by Blue MAGA.
If we had an actual Left wing candidate, they would have dominated. Just like they always do. Because America is a Left wing country. We just cant get our elected representatives to respect that. They insist on being Right wing.
I would agree, and do to an extent, but everyone also could have voted to not have a Republican senate, and skipped the Presidential vote.
most of the people you have probably argued with online about Harris and genocide probably did in fact hold their nose and vote for Harris. The people that stayed home were young people and Arab-Americans that have become disillusioned with the Dems, and the genocide was just the last straw. Many people who voted for Biden 4 years ago have found that their economic situation is worse than it was 4 years ago. Harris did little to convince people that her policy would be substantially different from Biden’s. Most of her campaign’s messaging was vibes-based shit like “coconut-pilled” and “we all need to heal” and “Madam President”. In the rare instance that she talked economic policy, it was clear that she would be like Biden, except with more neoliberal cozying up to corporations.
The people I know who are plugged into politics simply sucked it up and voted for Harris, because they are realistic about things. If you are following the news like that, it is obvious that Trump is worse in every way conceivable. Most Americans are busy, poorly-educated, and not that plugged into politics. They get their news from Facebook or TikTok. For those people, it is the candidate’s job to bring them on-side. Harris failed at that, plain and simple.
How about instead of blaming the people that Harris failed to convince, we talk about how we can invite those people back into our coalition? Personally, I’m ready to throw the Democratic party in the bin and start something new.
most of the people you have probably argued with online about Harris and genocide probably did in fact hold their nose and vote for Harris
Did you?
The fact that you read my entire comment and laser-focused on that one detail. If we’re descending into purity tests on the Left, we will never win another election.
I absolutely did not read your entire comment. The hypocrisy just stuck out to me from a glance. I wasn’t planning to continue to read.
Along with, of course, the hypocrisy of the fact that you’re now applying a purity test before you will vote for a Democrat, even in hindsight, even if she has only the vaguest of connections with the holocaust in Gaza, and even if the alternative is a hundred times worse including for Gaza.
It’s done. I’m not sure why I’m still talking about it. I think I just still have some nervous energy left over because of the question of what the fuck I’m going to do now.
I did, absolutely. I’m much more suspicious of the older, more Centrist people who told me they didn’t think America was “ready to elect a woman”. I suspect that most of them really meant they weren’t ready, and sat out.
Third party voters didn’t change a single state.
This is absolute bullsh1t.
Trump has repeatedly said Netanyahu can do as he pleases, has repeatedly disparaged all Muslims, has repeatedly shown a political kinship with dictatorships.
Biden/Harris were protest targets in spite of it being the entirety of Congress that votes on/gives foreign aid because these protests were propaganda bent on disenfranchising Democrats and nothing else. The protests will wither to nothing now that pants-sh1tter rapist is going to be president.
You were duped. You fell for it. Gaza has zero chance now.
Biden/Harris fucked up on more than just Gaza. Biden took action to address inflation, but Americans have continued to feel like their economic situation is worse off than it was 4 years ago. This is because grocery store and gas prices remain inflated, while the average American’s income has stagnated. In short: corporate greed. Biden has done little to address corporate greed, and Harris did little to assure Americans that she would combat corporate greed or make Americans feel better about their personal finances. All evidence suggested that she would be even cozier with the billionaires than Biden was. Not hard to see why people stayed home when they felt like their choices were a billionaire and a billionaire-sympathizer.
In short, STOP BLAMING YOUR ALLIES. Trump’s win is HARRIS’S FAULT.
You are not my ally. You are useful idiot to my enemies at best, and my direct enemy at worst.
what makes me not your ally?
Mate you are not our ally
If you are not trying to make allies, that’s fine. Just don’t expect to ever win another election.
I don’t. I also don’t believe we’re ever going to get another (fair) election, thanks to your inaction. The rule of law is finished, because:
- A convicted felon, in the middle of four separate criminal indictments
- Known to have raped his wife
- Raped a 14-year-old, probably raped a bunch of others with Epstein
- Bragged about sexually assaulting many other women
- Incited the Jan 6th riot to storm the White House and threaten to kill the vice president, as well as many other Congresspeople
- Stole boxes and boxes of top secret CIA documents
- Send many of those top secrets to foreign agents, including Putin, which got CIA agents killed
- Praises dictators and the way they rule out in the open
- Put three Supreme Court justices who are currently dismantling whatever judicial ideals the government has
That guy, he got voted president. If he can get re-elected after doing all of that shit, instead of being put in prison, then the rule of law is finished. We don’t really have a functional government that punishes criminals. We’re on the level of Brazil in terms of government corruption now, and quickly sliding into Turkey or Nazi Germany by the next decade.
Be sure to thank your fellow trans Beehaw Lemmy users [he/him] for deciding that your protest non-vote is more important than their lives, while they have their medical rights stripped, and their faces curb-stomped by an already-hostile public.
Thanks for assuming you know everything about me and what I am about. I voted for Harris. But unlike you, I respect the decision of people who didn’t, because genocide is a pretty fucking fair red line to draw. If both sides are advocating genocide, I can respect that someone might feel like the entire American project is failed and fascism will be essentially the same. I am not trans, but I have talked to trans people in my life who were extremely committed to withholding their vote until like, this week. They knew they were potentially sacrificing their own rights, but voting for self-preservation felt selfish when entire cities are being wiped out by Israel. Ultimately, everyone I personally know in that camp decided to hold their nose and vote for Harris.
But go on assuming things about your allies and sowing division, I guess. It won’t help anything, but whatever makes you feel better about Trump winning.
their non-vote is a fucking fantasy… their non-vote is going to cause palestinians to lose their lives… because they didn’t have the fucking spine to make a decision that actually effects the outcome, their childish protest is going to cause lives to be lost
Trump has repeatedly said Netanyahu can do as he pleases, has repeatedly disparaged all Muslims, has repeatedly shown a political kinship with dictatorships.
Right, and Harris shouted down protesters and wouldn’t denounce genocide. So if you are voting on this one single issue, you probably decide not to vote for either candidate, because they both cross your red line. However, most voters aren’t single-issue voters, and Harris didn’t provide much else in the way of policy to excite voters. Just vibes-based messaging and the occasional neoliberal economic policy.
So I repeat: Trump’s win is Harris’s fault. She had all the cards, and she flubbed it because she didn’t want to piss off her billionaire donors.
I feel like you as someone with pronouns in his bio should probably know that there are issues that the 2 available options differ in. So don’t try to wash the blood of trans people, women and other minorities in the US off your hands. You’re going to have to live with that because it ain’t coming off
How is there blood on my hands? I have not pretended that the candidates are the same. I wanted Harris to win. My point is that she ran a bad campaign.
Trump has repeatedly said Netanyahu can do as he please
So has Harris.
Biden/Harris were protest targets in spite of it being the entirety of Congress that votes on/gives foreign aid…
It is the Secretary of State who brokers deals. Congress follows the Executive branches lead for MOST funding. The Secretary of State answers to the President and Vice President.
You were duped. You fell for it. Gaza has zero chance now.
They never had a chance. You made sure of that. And, I’M SPEAKING HERE, all of the people in this echo chamber are to blame. We had a key opening when Biden was ousted to make change happen, to demand an open convention, to force the party left, to force a viable candidate, but instead, all of you latched on to Harris’ dick and went to war, not with Republicans (you guys apparently love Republicans, Love them Cheney endorsements, want em in the cabinet), you went to war with undecideds and pushed them third party.
This is your fault.
You have to convince people to vote for you, you can’t just rely on them voting against the other candidate. That’s why voter turnout was lower than previous elections.
How many more elections will Democrats have to lose before they’ll lean this lesson?
Not voting for KH & TW is saying that a fully-fascist America is A-OK with you. Full stop. There really isn’t any way you can justify voting otherwise.
I can’t believe how often I have to repeat this but: remember the electoral college? Your vote for President only matters if you live in one of a few states. Your full stop is premature.
I absolutely agree with you 100%. That still doesn’t address the fact that many people were less likely to vote for Harris if she continued to want to arm Israel. The stick of Trump was effective for getting yours and mine vote. Some other people needed the carrot of ending the Gaza Genocide. If they would have done the right thing, they had a chance of motivating those voters.
That still doesn’t address the fact that many people were less likely to vote for Harris if she continued to want to arm Israel.
There have always been holocausts going on, somewhere in the world. A lot of times, the US is involved.
For a certain audience, the narrative was that Biden caused inflation and Trump would rescue them and make their economic lives easy. And look at that, they bought it. Even though it was opposite-land bullshit.
For a certain audience, the narrative was that Biden caused the holocaust in Gaza. And look at that, they bought it. There was some validity. But the new thing was that it was hugely important, all over their social media, and Biden was responsible, and it defined his presidency in a way that 100 other things he did failed to do.
It only got presented and spread so widely and presented so singularly as a Democrats-only issue, without acknowledgement that Trump will be ten times worse, a hundred times worse, because that presentation would hurt the Democrats.
There were other narratives in the same way. Immigration, either that Biden was too kind or too mean. Oldness and feebleness. Policing. The truth or falsehood didn’t matter. They were expertly crafted.
And the result? Now, after people bought and acted on them, hook line and sinker?
Buddy just you fucking wait. Gaza will get much worse, of course, but it will barely even register as a major problem, by the time all of this is said and done.
Whoever made the narratives got their fucking money’s worth, and then some.
Buddy, I don’t disagree with you, I actually vehemently agree with most everything here BUT you still gotta beat the spread. You got to play the game better than the refs. All the nuance in the world doesn’t matter, you still gotta deliver and Harris didn’t.
- Media fault: 20%
- Putin / Musk / etc interference fault: 25%
- America dumb fault: 30%
- Long history of shitty Democrats fault: 15%
- Kamala Harris fault: 10%
Sure, you can say she shouldn’t have done the 10%. Would it have been enough? After watching what Biden did and how people reacted to him, probably not.
But anyway, we’ll never know. Also, I don’t know why the 10% is the most important part, to you. The other parts are fixable, going forward.
Well, maybe not now.
(Edit: Math is hard)
Its not actually, I just said in the end, she had to produce and she didn’t. I blame the media the most, but they’re just the propaganda arm of the oligarchy.
People had the opportunity to not vote for Harris and still vote for other elected representatives in the senate. Not voting was a better option it seems.
Does KH & TW not changing stance on this issue not mean they are A-OK with full-fascist America then?
Thanks to the duped non-voters, it’s likely that they won’t have to worry about that.
“Don’t blame your allies.”
Proceeds to blame his allies, picking out the one wedge issue which the opponents used to greatest effect to split the left in this election.
Nothing in particular that would help anyone pick up the pieces, or figure out what happens now or what to do.
Fair point. It’s the day after the election. Anger is a valid emotion. Today, I’m choosing to direct my anger at the Harris campaign for doing fuck-all to court undecided voters. Not the people in this thread; I suspect almost every American here went to the ballot box and voted for Harris/Walz, regardless of their opinions about Israel.
When I say “undecided voters”, I mean the single mothers in Pennsylvania that are so completely underwater because they have two jobs and everything is so expensive now and they probably have medical debt and other bills weighing them down. The people that don’t have time to watch every Harris interview and decide whether or not they are “coconut-pilled”. Those people saw what Harris was selling, and the message they received was “more of Biden, who did fuck all for me”. In the face of that, and when you have to move heaven and earth just to get the time to go vote, why would you bother?
I’ve spent enough of my arguing about politics energy for today, especially now that the horse has left the barn.
https://ponder.cat/comment/839212
https://ponder.cat/comment/837488
https://ponder.cat/comment/835981
That’s my response. There’s some good stuff in there. I do not require any kind of response on any of it.
But they got the Cheneys!
I mean, I feel like it is quite fair to blame the people who voted for Trump for Harris’s loss tbh. I don’t really buy the "the dems would win if they didn’t just refuse to try to win over conservatives and instead promised to go all-in on progressive policy that I’ve seen lately. I wish we got more progressive policy too, but it’s not like they don’t have any idea what people want, they have whole teams of people whose job it is to figure out that kind of thing. If promising some more progressive policy was a clear winner, why wouldn’t they do it? The answer I generally see implied or stated is that the dem establishment doesn’t want that policy, but that isn’t really an adequate explanation, because politicians are perfectly familiar with dishonesty. If supporting some progressive policy they didn’t like would win them power, they’d just promise it and then just not do that thing upon getting elected. It’s happened for state and congressional races before, so it’s not like that’s never been thought of.
I don’t think Harris’s loss is down to refusing to say the right words to inspire her base or anything like that, it’s down to the fact that, somehow, Trump is very good at inspiring his. She gave it a decent shot, but it’s very hard to win an election against a massive cult of personality. He, and the people that support him, are the problem here.
If promising some more progressive policy was a clear winner, why wouldn’t they do it? The answer I generally see implied or stated is that the dem establishment doesn’t want that policy, but that isn’t really an adequate explanation, because politicians are perfectly familiar with dishonesty. If supporting some progressive policy they didn’t like would win them power, they’d just promise it and then just not do that thing upon getting elected.
Because their personal motivations are not “maximize the chances for a Democratic win”, but preserve the power of themselves and their allies with money and influence. If these policies become a centerpiece of the election and broadly popularized, it becomes dangerous to ignore it and advances the saliency regardless of the outcome, pushing it closer to someone actually doing it. A campaign that says “the rich are abusing workers to fill their pockets and the government should tax their wealth until there are no billionaires and provide benefits to the workers” is dangerous to the rich people, even if its initially proposed by someone with no intention of following through.
In an election with stakes like this one though, doesnt maximizing their chances for a win also serve that? Like, being rich offers you some protection from the law, especially in a corrupt regime, but when the other side is an actual authoritarian, half-assing it so that they win while also being publicly against them is dangerous to one’s personal safety. Even rich people dont tend to get away with being against authoritarians, when they are in charge. If all you care about is power and influence, and you dont actually have any values beyond that, and one side is an authoritarian, then being on their side serves your interest, and being put in power to stop them serves your interest, but publicly failing to stop them puts a target on your back and gives you no power and influence by which to ward it off.
Got a link to the quoted article, by chance?
Good question - I did some digging. It seems the poll was commissioned by IMEU and conducted by YouGov, who has historically been a high-quality pollster. The poll seems to have taken place in late August. IMEU has this article on their site about it. I am not seeing any article on YouGov’s site, but frankly their site is a bit difficult to navigate.
Thanks for doing some homework on behalf of lil ole me!
I don’t use Xitter so all I can see is the single tweet and it’s just an image, no attribution.
So really this one person on the web who took a pic and said that someone told them this was totally true?
There’s this for methodology, at the end of the article:
So so so many people keep pointing at Trump and saying “But he’s the worst/we’re all doomed/holy shit you need to vote blue no matter who” and comments about “perfect being the enemy of the good” so we should hold our nose and support Democrats.
I feel like I’m the only person who remembers how hyperbolic we all were about Mitt Romney or John McCain being existential threats to democracy. South Park literally made fun of everybody at the time pointing at how running such a divisive campaign let them distract the public from their real goal of stealing the Hope Diamond (obviously). How many of us would BEG for Romney at the top of the Republican ticket at this point?
So sure, Trump is the threat now. When are we supposed to stop rewarding mediocre neoliberalism then? If it wasn’t 2016 or 2020 or 2024 then when? Trump will eventually die and some new Republican will take his place as the leader of the party. EVERY Republican will be the next existential threat and we’ll be scolded and told to hold our nose yet again and vote for the Democrat. If someone can tell me the “end date” where I don’t have to choose between the lesser of two evils, I’d love to know when that is.
I don’t blame other citizens for voting how they do. Everyone has to decide for themselves their red lines for support and in the privacy of the voting booth who they want to support. I do blame Democratic leadership for not learning a single lesson from 2016 about hand picking candidates and browbeating everyone into thinking that’s OK.
When are we supposed to stop rewarding mediocre neoliberalism then?
When neoliberalism is consistently beating fascism.
OK, how do we know we’re “beating fascism” and can back off? What stops Democratic leadership from arguing that the most boring ass middle of the road fiscal conservative Republican on the planet is “Trump 2.0” and must be stopped?
I don’t disagree on what you said at all, but so much of this is a war of messaging and marketing. If an amorphous “leadership” just keeps arguing the Republicans are all fascists regardless of what their actions/deeds/etc…actually suggest, how then do we push back on that narrative without being called a Russian plant or Republican sympathizer? In an age of clickbait, outrage manufacturing and people isolating in their own news spheres, it’s super easy for those with power to just lie and stay in power.
It was obvious in 2012 and 2016 that we needed somebody further left than Obama and Clinton. It was obvious in 2020 that Bernie was the best choice of Democratic candidate. We weren’t rewarding neoliberalism then. But when Biden won the primary, we put our feelings aside and rewarded neoliberalism, and we bought our trans comrades 4 more years of life. Then, in 2024, we stopped rewarding neoliberalism.
If Kamala had won yesterday, then you and drag would currently be talking about AOC 2028. We would be able to stop rewarding neoliberalism. Drag would be posting clips of Harris saying that she’s overseen the greatest growth in oil production in history, and calling her a genocidal maniac. It would be clear.
But Trump won, and it’s equally clear what we have to do in this timeline.
It was obvious in 2012 and 2016 that we needed somebody further left than Obama and Clinton.
When Republicans win, the Overton window doesn’t slide to the left. It’s slides to the right. Expecting it to go even further left is a misunderstanding of politics.
Good thing Republicans didn’t control the white house in those years, then.
Trump wasn’t elected in 2016?
He was elected at the end of 2016. Drag is talking about the rest of that year, when America had just had 8 years of Obama. Bernie could have beat Trump in 2016, if we had pushed hard enough. The will to choose a progressive candidate finally came… In 2024 when it was useless. Some people just don’t adapt fast enough, even when the stakes are clear.
Neoliberalism doesn’t beat fascism though and that’s the point.
Fascism is capitalism’s immune system to eliminate dissent and critical ideas.
And then when everyone is united against the fascists who’ve rounded up the socialists, the students, the ethnic and sexual minorities, Neoliberalism steps back in, wipes the blood off of its hands, and says “wow, wasn’t that bad. Let’s stick with me from now on”.
So until failed neoliberalism stops failing, we have to keep supporting it? Seems a little backwards. If mediocre neoliberalism was beating fascism, I’d be more okay with getting behind it.
Why keep supporting the losers and thinking they’ll miraculously turn into winners?
After Biden dropped out, I was cheerleading for Harris. I didn’t like her policies, but she had much better chances than Biden, and it seemed like she understood what pitfalls to avoid.
Didn’t matter. The DNC doesn’t understand what is needed to win. They’re still running a playbook from 1996. They think the undecideds are in between them and the GOP, when in actuality they’re to the Left.
Instead, the DNC has now absorbed a bunch of “never Trumper” repubs who clearly aren’t willing to vote for a woman, but will let a geriatric white guy eke out a win if you promise not to do the social justice.
I think the DNC being a “big tent” party has allowed it to accept a large number of very questionable supporters, who for instance won’t vote for women, and who think that Cop City and broken windows policing is totally fine akshually, and whose jaws don’t drop when someone says to “send social workers into the homes” of black parents…
Ultimately, we probably will never know exactly which demo(s) sat out, and everyone will end up just interpreting their own side as the right path forwards. Depressing stuff.
You’re exactly right, and this is my point. I’d bet damn near everyone commenting in this thread voted for Harris. It doesn’t matter, we aren’t the swing voters. And the swing voters are the ones that decided this election. There is nothing we can really do to convince swing voters, unless they are already our friends or family. It was Harris’s job to come out with bold policy proposals and messages that would convince those swing voters. Instead, she peddled the same milquetoast neolib shit that has been losing Dems elections since the 90s.
Sorry but is there a source for this poll? I’m curious how this data was collected? (And am always skeptical of data cited in a toot without a source).
Edit: Just saw it was a YouGov survey from June with a small sample size. Interesting.
They made their decisions and you made yours. If you decided that we’d be better off with Trump, that’s on you. Own it.
Putting Trump in office makes Gaza worse. He’s promised us as much. Maybe you proved a point to the Democrats, and maybe you didn’t. Maybe now they’ll lean even harder to the center. Who knows. That’s a gamble you took, and you made steep sacrifices to make that gamble.
Gambling with someone’s life to make a political point does not make you their ally.
I’m sorry, did you personally count my ballot? Or are you just making assumptions about me?
Fuck that, I’m blaming every single person that didn’t vote for Harris
I’m blaming those who didn’t vote the most.
You’re going to have a busy day.
I mean, if you’re referring to the people that voted for Trump, I’m right there with you. It’s absolutely mind-boggling that a rapist and convicted felon won the popular vote.
The majority of population aren’t the ones who voted for Trump. The majority of the population didn’t vote at all.
Yeah, they are just as guilty as the ones that voted for Trump (and the ones that voted third party) in my book
No number of additional blue votes in Massachusetts or Hawaii was ever going to matter.
