we refused pressure to deplatform both Palestinian student groups and Zionist student groups
Insane equivocation. One of those is a national and ethnic group; the other is a political movement whose pet project is currently on trial for genocide… “we refused pressure to deplatform both Jewish student groups and National Socialist student groups”
I think that’s the entire point of the comment. They are impartial even to evil. They respect privacy.
Impartial to evil is… Well, just evil.
If I walk past a person beheading 3 people who have done nothing wrong, and am able to in fact stop it, and don’t… I’m just as fucking evil as the guy doing the beheading.
Indeed. When privacy gets involved it’s gets dicey and awkward.
i agree with you, but the company has now invited scrutiny openly by allowing a) andy to make this tweet (personal accout or no) and b) andy to make a follow up statement using the proton reddit account. people have a distaste now, so expect to see everything you say and do to be overanalyised.
“we refused pressure to deplatform both Jewish student groups and National Socialist student groups”
They are a Swiss company, yes.
Went to the replies to say this. You got here before me
I lean left on some issues, and right on other issues
Holy shit I feel so STUPID for giving $30 a month for this clown. I am so pissed, I hate myself for allowing myself to migrate my stuff all over thinking it would be fine. I am so fucking pissed right now.
The American mind cannot grasp liking specific policies of a given party
You need to understand the Republican party is a fascist one. Giving anything to them is a mistake.
There are no specific policies of the GOP, Trump, or the American Reich that are positive for anyone but oligarchs.
Whole cognitive dissonance thing is stronger in American than Russia at this point Putin’s won. Can’t even like a single policy idea that’s good and talk about it being good. I’m confused why this is even a big deal and I fucking hate trump. I think half the morons on the Internet forget the way to manipulate trump is to praise him and then you can convince him to do good or bad. Or whatever. Hes worse than Joe Rogan. He just parrots the last person who stroked his ego.
Oh, Putin’s still a loser. The US is just following him into incompetence and cruelty for cruelty’s sake. Nobody wins here.
Yeah. Agreed. I was just bitching lol
There are no single policies of the GOP that are “good” for anyone but oligarchs. Reich Wingers aren’t your friends. And, if you believe them to be, you’ll be one of the firsts in the Night of the Long Knives.
Jezus fucking christ, do people not read history anymore?
Well he did build the Autobahn…
And the allies countries did far worse things in their colonies but whos counting
I’m pretty sure most countries have done worse things than build the Autobahn.
that doesn’t really help your point seeing as we are talking about a fascist presiding over one of those colonies that was part of the alliance against Hitler.
You can tell Andy is European because he does not understand American politics.
If you say anything positive about an American politician it means you will stan them for life and support all their actions unconventionally.
Likewise if you say anything negative about an American politician it means hate everything they stand for.
If you say anything positive about an American politician it means you will stan them for life and support all their actions unconventionally.
There is nothing positive about the GOP, Trump, or the American Reich Wing.
The communication that kicked off this whole thing was saying something positive about Trump and something negative about Democrats in direct comparison, on an issue that the Democrats are actually way better on.
It’s not just saying something positive about a political official or party. It’s actively saying “this party is better than that party.” And he was wrong on the merits of the statement.
And then amplifying the message using an official account is where it went off the rails. CEOs are allowed to have opinions as individuals. But when the official account backs up the CEO, then we can rightly be skeptical that the platform itself will be administered in a fair way.
Trouble is Andy, we now know what you privately think and all the follow up statements in the world can’t put that genie back in the bottle.
Proton is an org that exists in an industry whose customers do not trust easily. Publicly aligning with someone utterly untrustable, either as an individual or as a board, has tainted Proton and adversely affected peoples ability to trust. How can we ever know when Proton will find it acceptable again to respond positively to a Trumpian decision or how it might affect our privacy?
To be honest, many of not most CEOs probably privately think that way because it’s advantageous to their business. It’s a product of how the government is owned by the corporations. We all hate it but it’s simply The current state of affairs. It’s literally his job not to let it out into public that he feels that way.
Literal thought policing (“what you privately think”) and quasi-religious purity logic (“has tainted Proton”). This nicely reveals the kind of busybodying inquisitorial mindset that keeps losing elections for US progressives and thus landing the rest of the world with Trump.
There’s an easy solution to the pseudo-problem you raise: judge Proton by its actions rather than the (utterly commonplace) opinions of one of its directors.
Literal thought policing (“what you privately think”)
Your private thoughts, nobody cares about. He didn’t have a “private thought” exposed, he literally posted his thought publicly.
THATs the issue, and people can choose to disassociate with you, if you publicly ruminate how you’re going to work hand-in-hand with a fascist state.
judge Proton by its actions rather than the (utterly commonplace) opinions of one of its directors.
And, this is what we are doing. A CEO speaks for the organization, and telegraphs it’s actions. And his actions are gross.
If the org wants to fix this, they need to fire him. Because otherwise, his opinion is the opinion of the organization.
It’s not thought policing. Proton, a company all about privacy, is literally nothing without the trust of its user base. Aligning with someone who is not trustworthy by making a statement that makes no sense (literally saying Trump’s administration will be anti-big tech while it’s been gaining shit tons of support from the Tech Titans Musk, Bezos, and Zuck) completely debases that trust. Additionally it’s not thought policing because companies are not people and cannot think.
Even if it was thought policing, in line with the Social Contract of Tolerance, there is no room to tolerate, let alone vocally support, fascists.
I love user notes; this one has ‘fascist centrist’ attached, and lo and behold.
I was unaware this feature existed, how do you set this?
I can do it in the Boost for Lemmy app. I don’t know if you can do it via the web interface.
hey i remember you from yesterday’s thread, where you called the official proton’s account doubling down “significant if true” and still haven’t changed your tune
They walked it back and apologized.
Hey bud, when you blurt out what you think “privately”, it’s no longer private, and people not liking what was said publicly isn’t “thought policing”.
Secondly, Protons actions include supporting this wackjob’s “private” thoughts.. Even by your asinine rubric, they’re allowed to be judged on that.
Literal thought policing (“what you privately think”)
Are you suggesting that a statement that he made is not what he thinks?
quasi-religious purity logic (“has tainted Proton”)
lol, sorry you’re incapable of processing descriptive language :) I’ll rephrase it to ‘has negatively affected Proton’s image in the eyes of some’.
This nicely reveals the kind of busybodying inquisitorial mindset that keeps losing elections for US progressives and thus landing the rest of the world with Trump.
Neither I, nor Proton, are American so its difficult to see how my opinion keeps landing the world with Trump.
“Thought policing” is when you coerce someone to change their thoughts against their will. It is not boycotting a service because one does not agree with the service owner’s thoughts. That is not thought policing. That is a purely voluntary transaction on both sides, and that is one’s right as a consumer of said service. He is not entitled to customers.
It’s funny how people completely lost their minds when they could see a potential connection between what he said and some political side while those same people are perfectly fine with ignoring what’s really wrong with Proton and its marketing - even though it all goes against their core beliefs of “privacy” “security” “open-source” etc.
Folks, don’t take this obvious bait.
a hobbyist after mine own heart
What is wrong Proton and their marketing?
Any e-mail service that doesn’t provide standard IMAP/SMTP directly to their servers and uses custom protocols is yet another attempt at vendor lock-in and nobody should use it.
What Proton is doing is pushing for vendor lock-in at any possible point so you’re stuck with what they deem acceptable because it’s easier for them to build a service this way and makes more sense from a business / customer retention perspective. Proton is doing to e-mail about the same that WhatsApp and Messenger did to messaging - instead of just using an open protocol like XMPP they opted for their closed thing in order to lock people into their apps. People in this community seem to be okay with this just because they sell the “privacy” cool-aid.
People complain when others use Google or Microsoft for e-mail around here, but at least in those providers you can access your e-mail through standard protocols. How ironic it is to see privacy / freedom die hard fans suddenly going for a company that is far less open than the big providers… just because of marketing. :)
Proton is just a company that wants profits and found out there was a niche of people who would buy into everything that they label as “encryption” and “privacy” no matter what the cost. They’ve learnt how to weaponize “privacy” to push more and more vendor lock-in. Not even Apple does this bullshit.
Now, I can see anyone commenting “oh but they have to it because of security” - no they don’t. That’s bullshit.
Any generic IMAP/SMPT provider + Thunderbird + PGP will provide the same level of security that Proton does - that is assuming they didn’t mess their client-side encryption/decryption or key storage in some way. PGP makes sure all your e-mail content is encrypted and that’s it, doesn’t matter if it’s done by Thunderbird and the e-mails are stored in Gmail OR if it’s done by the Proton bridge and the e-mails are on their servers, the same PGP tech the only difference is the client. So, no, there isn’t the reason to do it the way they do it besides vendor lock-in.
Any generic IMAP/SMPT provider + Thunderbird + PGP will provide the same level of security that Proton does - that is assuming they didn’t mess their client-side encryption/decryption or key storage in some way.
And isn’t that the point? I don’t have time nor do I want to learn about PGP and how to encrypt email. Someone sells that service, great. And it is not like I cannot send normal emails to anyone else. They are using the same standard, not some made up version of SMTP (when sending to other servers, I assume any email from client A to client B both being Proton customer never leave their server, so no need for a new protocol).
Proton is doing to e-mail about the same that WhatsApp and Messenger did to messaging - instead of just using an open protocol like XMPP they opted for their closed thing in order to lock people into their apps
Proton themself provides a way to export emails in a decrypted format. It is even cross platform. https://proton.me/support/proton-mail-export-tool And all they do is open source, here is the code for their mail server: https://proton.me/support/proton-mail-export-tool. They seem to be using ordinary standards, but what do I know?
I cannot agree with you and I do not think your arguments holds, I would even go as far as to say that they are flawed (example being claiming “closed thing” while being fully open source using open standards). It seems to me that they have something that people are willing to pay money for. You are not one of them (nor am I).
I don’t personally use them as an email provider because of the limit on how many domains they allow as a standard.
I want to learn about PGP and how to encrypt email. Someone sells that service, great. And it is not like I cannot send normal emails to anyone else.
I don’t disagree with you, I believe it as well. PGP is it stands is cumbersome.
The thing is that could’ve still implemented a easy-to-use, “just login and send email” type of web client and abstracted the user from the PGP complexities while still delivering everything over IMAP/SMTP.
They are using the same standard, not some made up version of SMTP (when sending to other servers, I assume any email from client A to client B both being Proton customer never leave their server, so no need for a new protocol).
You assume correctly, but when your mail client is trying to send an email instead of using SMTP to submit to their server, you’re using a proprietary API in a proprietary format and the same goes for receiving email.
This is well documented and to prove it further if you want to configure Proton in a generic mail client like Thunderbird then you’re required to install a “birdge”, a piece of software that essentially simulates a local IMAP and SMPT server (that Thunderbird communicates with) and then will convert those requests into requests their proprietary API understands. There are various issues with this approach the most obvious one is that it is an extra step, there’s also the issue that in iOS for eg. you’re forced to use their mail app because you can’t run the bridge there.
The bridge is an afterthought to support generic email clients and generic protocols, only works how and where they say it should work and may be taken away at any point.
while being fully open source using open standards
Delivering your data over proprietary APIs doesn’t count as “open standards” - sorry.
https://proton.me/support/android
We don’t currently integrate Proton Mail with third-party email clients on Android. Third-party email clients for Android are not capable of the encryption and decryption processes Proton Mail performs.
https://proton.me/support/ios-iphone
Third-party email clients for iOS are not capable of the encryption and decryption processes Proton Mail performs to keep your data safe
They do lock you in on handheld devices but that seems to be a consequence of the fact that they are storing all emails encrypted on the server. After reading this link (“[…]Since IMAP can’t decrypt your emails[…]”), I agree that they are just implementing PGP with an extra steps and creating an unneeded layer (the bridge).
The reason I would not compare it to XMPP is because they are still using SMTP. It is when they stop using SMTP or force others to use something else that I would be very worried.
They do lock you in on handheld devices but that seems to be a consequence of the fact that they are storing all emails encrypted on the server. After reading this link (“[…]Since IMAP can’t decrypt your emails[…]”), I agree that they are just implementing PGP with an extra steps and creating an unneeded layer (the bridge).
Yes, that’s precisely the problem there. You can use PGP with any generic IMAP provider and that will work just fine with handheld devices. There are multiple mail clientes capable of doing and all your mail is still encrypted on the server. Proton just made an alternative implementation that forces you into proprietary systems because it’s more convenient for them.
Those kinds of setups with servers encrypting your mail and still delivering over IMAP are fairly easy to implement, here’s an example. They simply decided to go all proprietary.
The reason I would not compare it to XMPP is because they are still using SMTP. It is when they stop using SMTP or force others to use something e
On a generic mail system SMTP is used in two places: 1) from your mail client to your provider and 2) between your provider and other providers. Proton is NOT using SMPT for the first step, making it non-standard and much more closed.
Don’t feed the trolls. This is an obvious attempt to divert the conversation.
It’s always interesting when someone claims something that goes against the norm on the internet, they might know something that I do not. That was not the case today, unfortunately.
It’s a tricky to maintain balance between openness to opposing views while avoiding susceptibility to disingenuous “just asking questions” diversion.
I understand your concerns of vendor lock-in. The fear is that it could avoid people leaving the service in the future. However, do you know that I use a generic email client that, through IMAP, contains a Proton account?
Sure, you’re using a bridge they develop and they can away or break at any point. It’s not the best ideal. Why support a company that is actively trying to turn open protocols into more closed stuff? Makes no sense. That type of non-sense is what got us into the situation we’ve now with WhatsApp and other messengers.
I understand the fear of the bridge being burned down. I also see how that would make Proton like WhatsApp, which has its own protocol and locks its users in. Would it be inaccurate to say that your fear is that Proton pulls an “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” move?
In any case, it’s worthwhile looking at your claims. You mention that Proton is “actively trying to turn open protocols into more closed stuff”.
- Why can I use PGP as the encryption protocol in Proton Mail? Is that a closed protocol?
- Why could I download an archive of all of my emails last December both through IMAP and through MBOX? Are those two “closed stuff”? In fact, I could’ve downloaded my archive as EML; is that a closed protocol?
- Why could I download a copy of my contacts as VCF? Is that a closed protocol?
- Why can I export my Proton Pass passwords as JSON or CSV? Are those closed protocols?
- Is it really tenable to argue that Proton is pulling an “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” move when they support PGP, IMAP, SMTP, MBOX, EML, VCF, JSON, and CSV?
You could argue that it’s simply a matter of time until they pull the rug and close their protocols. Let’s elide the whole discussion regarding the probability of the rug pull happening and instead focus on the present reality: as of December 2024, I could download an archive of everything I have on Proton without a hitch. They do not have the whole Meta thing of “Please give us four working days for us to create an archive of your data”. At least that wasn’t my experience. I could download an archive quickly.
- If users have the capability of downloading open protocol archives of everything they have on Proton, are they really stopping them from going elsewhere?
Would it be inaccurate to say that your fear is that Proton pulls an “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” move?
No, it isn’t. But they never “embraced” as there was never direct IMAP to their servers, instead it’s a proprietary API serving data in a proprietary format.
I also see how that would make Proton like WhatsApp, which has its own protocol and locks its users in.
The problem isn’t that taking down the bridge would make Proton like WhatsApp. It’s the other way around, when they decided to build their internals with proprietary protocols and solutions instead eg. IMAP+SMTP they became the WhatsApp. Those things shouldn’t be addons or an afterthought, they should be bult into the core.
This clearly shows that making open solutions ranks very low their company and engineering priority list. If it was at the top they would’ve built it around IMAP instead.
I could download an archive of everything I have on Proton without a hitch.
Yes you can, but the data will come in more property formats hard to upload to anywhere else - at least for some of the data. They’ve improved this situation but it’s still less than ideal. In the beginning they would export contacts and calendars in some JSON format, I see they moved to vCard and iCal now.
The lines between fact (…) and opinion can be blurry at times
Are they though?
Fact: People make statements on social media they later regret.
Given the context, what is your opinion of that fact? Untimely? Biased? It’s still true. Facts are facts
Andy Yen, perched on ivory tower: “Why yes, they are a bit blurry up here.”
Full context here for everyone.
Personally, that answer does not seem nearly enough and I believe he should stand down if he truly cared about the Proton project as a whole.
👆
Stepping down would be a step in the right direction.
Why does his username have “88” in binary 🧐
The number 8 is lucky to Chinese people. Source: I am Chinese
Is it normal to double it up?
Yes, doubling characters or numbers is common in Chinese to insist on the item.
At weddings, you will see lots of double happiness characters for example.
“Everybody” is literally the character for people that is repeated, so “yan yan”.
88 was my favorite number for a long time until I found out that Nazis were using it. Bummer. I’m weirdly still sad about it.
I can’t even tell you why it was my favorite number. I think as a kid, I always heard people pick 7 and I just wanted to be different so I leaned into 8s. Idk.
Now, I struggles because I like 8s but I don’t want to be a Nazi. F’ing Nazis ruin everything.
Guess I could just like 8 or 888, haha.
He might be born on 1988, although I could not verify this. He started his PhD on 2009, that’d make him 21 at that time, which is not unusual
He replied to a comment on reddit that it’s his birth year.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/m7g9jo0/?context=10000
Bruh, just “Andy1988” would’ve been a better username 🤦♂️
21 is quite young for a doctorate degree. Most people only have a bachelor’s degree by 22.
Not that unusual IMO, lots of people start their PhD directly after completing their Bachelor’s. If they weren’t born born in the first half of the year then they’ll have completed their BS by 21 and start the PhD either at 21 or 22.
A PhD is a mutli-year committment, usually right about 4 years before you’re ready to argue your dissertation.
Like, a PhD program is basically 1/3 doing your research, 1/3 being a TA, and 1/3 being an RA.
They’re saying he could have started his PhD at 21, not finished it at 21. That age checks out if he was born in 1988.
Bah, I totes misread that, yeah.
Because of fucking course it does. 🤦♂️😮💨
Assuming Andy Chen isn’t American, this is understandable:
“It should be obvious, but I will say that it is a false equivalence to say that agreeing with Republicans on one specific issue (antitrust enforcement to protect small companies) is equal to endorsing the entire Republican party platform.”
But it’s extremely tone deaf to Americans who live within the two party duopoly in the US, and who are sensitive to the fact that you can’t really be a compromise between the two (as politics stand, currently)
This makes sense to me from a framing perspective. As an American myself, despite my best efforts, I still fall into the same trap of sort of assuming everything is much more American centric than it actually is, including other people’s opinions on American politics from outside America.
His post does come off as wildly tone deaf, but seeing how he would have perceived it, it makes a lot of sense. He endorses policy by a party that shared his values, and then gets pushback for it from people who support his values. I’d probably be as confused as him if I was in his shoes.
proton is cia
proton is ciait’s modern crypto AG
So, we just believe that Proton, being buddy-buddy with Trump, isn’t going to turn around, and stab us in the backs?
Call me “skeptical”.
“Here at Proton, we believe that all life is sacred, thats why we gave the IP addresses of pregnant teens who are planning to get an abortion”
(even compiling the user client yourself won’t protect against IP logging, also, external emails arrive at proton servers in plain text)
Maybe I missed something, but I haven’t seen anything to indicate that Andy/Proton likes Trump?
They said they agreed with one decision the republican party made, and pointed out how the democrats have been prioritising corporate interests.But what do I know, I’m not American, so I’m not incapable of understanding nuance like most Americans on the internet seem to be.
Andy Yen might be a CERN scientist, but he’s conpletely ignorant of US politics. I think hes just spewing his uneducatedbpolitical opinions, not necessary being pro-trump. It’s kinda concerning tho, I don’t really like a privacy service being run by an idiot (on the topic of politics, at least), not gonna switch overnight, but definitly start looking into alternatives in case he or the board goes full elon mode.
IDC as long as they are not bending their knees to European countries that the EU hasn’t yet kicked out. But mainly I don’t care because I’m not American.
Honestly all that noise was coming from Americans anyway, not a big deal They’re drama-queens. Never take Americans seriously on politics & economy (& also healthcare)
Am American. Can confirm that we are hyper reactionary. I read the tweet and shrugged it off, and rolled my eyes at the people claiming that Proton was now “dead” to them for bending the knee to Trump and were seeking out alternatives.
All of our American healthcare horror stories are true. Never take medical systems advice from us; our system is so evil and broken that our only possible recourse is “deposing” CEOs.
You are one of those exceptional ones
Literally none of this matters and its all just noise. American politics and Americans themselves are insane.
In the first comment after the second Proton toot, some queer woman complains about something related to the killing of people that are non-binary.
!Man, I love Mastodon.!<
Yeah, I pay for Proton to try it out. I was liking it but this guy bending the knee to someone like trump is a huge red flag. I won’t be renewing my subscription!
