Whenever people ask about ways to make their smartphones more private or which is the most privacy-respecting phone to get, there’s always a few people confidently asserting “all smartphones are spy tools, get a dumbphone with no apps if you want to be private”. Which is ridiculous advice for a few reasons

  • Dumbphones usually run either proprietary operating systems or outdated forks of Android. They’re almost never encrypted. They rarely get security updates. They’re a lot more vulnerable than even a regular Android phone

  • With dumbphones, you’re usually limited to regular phone calls or SMS/MMS messaging. These are ancient communication standards with zero built-in privacy. Your ISP can read any text message you send and view metadata logs of any phone calls you make. In lots of places (like Australia where I live) ISPs are actually required to keep logs of your messages and phone calls

With even a regular Android phone you at least have access to encrypted messaging apps like Signal or Session so your conversations aren’t fair game for anyone who wants to read them. Of course there are better options. iOS (not perfect but better than most bloatware-filled Android devices) and a pixel with GrapheneOS (probably the best imo) are much better options; but virtually anything out there is going to be better for privacy than a dumbphone

Edit: Thanks everyone for giving your thoughts. Some really good points I hadn’t thought much about

  • namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev
    0·
    16 days ago

    As others have mentioned, this is a matter of threat model. To be realistic, a sufficiently determined government will always be able to access your communications, but companies like Facebook and Google can only access them if you give it to them willingly. On the other hand, if other people you communicate with do this by themselves, then you’ve gone through all that effort for nothing. It’s also worth pointing out that it cannot be proven that a regular phone does not have corporate spyware installed, so this may be another way your information could leak to companies.

    That said, it is pretty insulting that tech companies have decided that they’re simply entitled to everyone’s private communication data. That for me is probably the biggest motivator in trying to avoid their services as much as possible.

    • pineapple@lemmy.mlEnglish
      0·
      15 days ago

      a sufficiently determined government will always be able to access your communications

      If you use encrypted messages and both people using the messages have a phone with disk encryption then there is literally no way for a government to gain access to your messages. That is assuming the government isn’t going to torture you.

  • jonathan@piefed.socialEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    You are conflating privacy and security. They’re not unrelated, but generally speaking while a dumphone may be less secure than a smartphone, it’s also certainly more private.

    • ringpop@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      0·
      16 days ago

      How can you have a private phone with less security?

      Edit: Certainly without security you cannot have true privacy

      • survirtual@lemmy.world
        0·
        16 days ago

        It is simple.

        It produces significantly less data. It doesn’t have all the apps you are being tracked by reporting on your every move.

        It doesn’t have faceid, and probably has a lot of exploits (less security), but the data it holds isn’t worth securing and it doesn’t provide a non-stop datamine (more privacy).

        Basically, instead of having a large safe filled with gold, you have a duffel-bag with your old gym clothes. You don’t need security for old gym clothes.

        • TurtleTourParty@midwest.socialEnglish
          0·
          16 days ago

          Someone once broke into my sister’s car and stole her bag of gym clothes but I get what you’re saying.

          Personally I would love a dumbphone but I find a smartphone too useful (specifically map and transit apps). I wish I could have the same number for one of each and only bring the smartphone when necessary.

        • Auli@lemmy.caEnglish
          0·
          16 days ago

          And what is less private about face ID or fingerprints. You di now how those work? But from your comment I’m guessing you have no idea.

          • jonathan@piefed.socialEnglish
            0·
            16 days ago

            You’re just continuing the conflation by speaking about security functionality in terms of privacy.

  • Stillwater@sh.itjust.works
    0·
    17 days ago

    You can make a smartphone (more) private, but out of the box and loaded with standard apps (eg Google), its a privacy nightmare. So I get where they are coming from. Sure using SMS isn’t private, but dropping all that app addiction is.

    • PowerCrazy@lemmy.mlEnglish
      0·
      17 days ago

      It comes down to the hostile actor you are trying to defend against. If you are Jason Bourne and you have been burned by your agency so multiple nation-states are looking for you, then you have to go fully off-grid and live a quiet life without ever communicating with anyone in your prior life again. It doesn’t matter if you are using Signal, or SMS, or even a dial-up BBS. If you are communicating with people that are also under heavy surveillance, you cannot hide.

      If you want to reduce your “digital footprint,” then not using google/facebook/other social media is the most worthwhile thing you can possibly do. Your phone doesn’t matter. Use iOS, never install any of the social apps, use Safari in incognito mode, and you’ll never be tracekd across websites again.

        • sigmaklimgrindset@sopuli.xyz
          0·
          17 days ago

          What happened with Firefox?

          I think OP meant use Safari with the Apple’s Privacy Relay thing that hides your IP and generalizes location data into a larger area, not just regular “private mode” that Safari has. Too bad it’s subscription only on iCloud+, and who knows if it actually works as well as Apple claims it does.

          • PowerCrazy@lemmy.mlEnglish
            0·
            16 days ago

            I wasn’t referring to the privacy relay, though if you want to use it that’s fine too. More of just easy ways to reduce your digital footprint.

        • PowerCrazy@lemmy.mlEnglish
          0·
          16 days ago

          It’s the most private and secure phone OS you can get today. You have to have minimal trust in Apple that they won’t change the terms, but that is miles better then using google who will explicitly use your data for anything they want.

          • artyom@piefed.socialEnglish
            0·
            16 days ago

            It’s absolutely not. It requires extraordinary trust in Apple.

            The most private and secure OS is GrapheneOS, without a doubt. Google cannot use data they do not have.

      • frongt@lemmy.zip
        0·
        17 days ago

        This. A dumbphone is private in the sense that it’s not collecting and transmitting a whole lot of data to Facebook, Google, etc., which is what most people are concerned about in this community.

        If you also want encrypted communications, use something built for that purpose. But keep in mind, the other person will also have to have a compatible device, and probably isn’t as concerned about maintaining hygiene.

    • Godort@lemmy.ca
      0·
      17 days ago

      Switching from a smartphone to a dumbphone is usually not about increasing privacy in the first place.

      People tend to make the switch for mental health reasons, rather than privacy ones. When your phone goes back to being a direct communication tool rather than a passtime, you tend to realize just how much time you spend during a day doing basically nothing.

  • HiddenLayer555@lemmy.mlEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    If you’re willing to live with a dumb phone, you’re willing to live with a Linux phone (Or an open ROM without Google apps). AFAIK they can call and text just fine without installing anything else so any Linux apps you like are just a bonus.

    • DupaCycki@lemmy.world
      0·
      16 days ago

      Good point. Linux phones, even in their current state, might be a good middle ground for people with low needs.

      Although there’s two things I’d mostly be worried about.

      1. Battery life. Smartphones, including Linux ones, aren’t exactly known for amazing battery life. A dumb phone would likely last several times longer on a single charge.
      2. Physical durability. Even after all those years of structural improvements, smartphones remain fairly fragile. Usually I use high durability cases with my smartphones (ideally Otterbox Defender), though I don’t think anything similar is even available for any Linux phones. And of course, we all know dumb phones are generally durable enough.
      • Zerush@lemmy.ml
        0·
        16 days ago

        I remember the need to reload my old Nokia sometimes and that it had a better reception strengh than my current smartphone, apart of the bulletproof finish.

  • EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    With dumbphones, you’re usually limited to regular phone calls or SMS/MMS messaging.

    That’s kind of the point.

    Sure, you can’t do much with them, but by that very fact you also won’t have nearly as much data to be spied on.

    Likewise, you can do much more with a smartphone, but that comes with a much higher surface of attack, and you also have to work a lot harder to keep all the data away from spying.

    • TipRing@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      17 days ago

      SMS/MMS and the PSTN are completely compromised by multiple governments. Not saying that makes smartphones any better, just be aware.

      • Zerush@lemmy.ml
        0·
        16 days ago

        Yes, not so difficult to spy phone calls and SMS, but it’s way less risky for privacy and security as in Smartphones, full of sensitive data on an OS and tons of apps which logs and spy on you, spreading the information not only to the ISP and govs, but also to private advertising companies and others, which is way worse. Phone lines are way less dangerous for privacy and security as the Internet, log data stored by the ISP are deleted after an max. of three month, data on the internet are forever and can’t be deleted, because they are spreeded everywhere.

        At least in my case, I don’t use my Smartphone for other things as for calls, I don’t use any messenger apps nor storing sensitive data on it, desconected GPS and localisation apps. For me smartphones as such are spyware by definition, more if the include AI like they are doing currently.

  • ClathrateG [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    yeah a smartphone with locked down hardware and graphene and open source encrypted communication is best obvs

    the reason street drug dealers use burners is the customers won’t all have encrypted communication they’ll have sms/calls

  • Chemical Wonka@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    GrapheneOS or nothing. We have to support them whenever we can more than ever. The battle against mass surveillance will become increasingly difficult. Many countries are heading towards neo-fascism and will use all state power to end privacy at all costs

  • Goun@lemmy.ml
    0·
    17 days ago

    I guess the idea is that you wont be able to do a lon with a dumbphone, so it’s basically a paperweight that sometimes receives calls and with too much luck, an SMS. You have a tool for emergencies or specific events, but you don’t have your life on it, so you keep most of your privacy from ever reaching it. That’s my take, at least.

  • swelter_spark@reddthat.comEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    I always thought people used the term “dumbphone” to refer to old-fashioned devices that are just a phone and don’t run any OS.

    • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
      0·
      16 days ago

      Yes, they are. There’s a system called Ubuntu Touch, and there are a few others that I’m not as well aware of.

  • bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net
    0·
    15 days ago

    I think the main advantage is that if a state actor wants to Pegasus you, they can always get into a normal iOS/Android device until the next reboot. It’s not feasible, even with the resources of the Israeli state that Pegasus can support ALL models of random dumbphone that has ever existed, so there is a fair chance that while the security may not be modern on an old Nokia, they would need to burn 1000 development hours to deploy bugging malware into it that already “just works” with iOS and Android.

  • Sam_Bass@lemmy.world
    0·
    15 days ago

    If you have to connect to an intermediary to make a call, you can be heard and traced. GPRS is only marginally better if you and the one you call are on the same uncommon frequency

  • Ardens@lemmy.ml
    0·
    17 days ago

    And your keystrokes are logged on phones where you use Signal…

    Dumbphones are more private. Privacy is on a scale, and you have less apps and systems that track you and profile you on a dumbphone.

    Do you want true privacy? Don’t use a phone…

    • Kefla [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      0·
      17 days ago

      Yup, no phone is the way to go. Obviously not practical 100% of the time in the modern day, but if you’re ever doing something you don’t want linked to you, leave the phone at home.

  • Nora@lemmy.ml
    0·
    16 days ago

    Nice thing is, usually the dumb phones have removable batteries. So just remove the battery when you’re not using it. Problem solved.

  • Obinice@lemmy.world
    0·
    17 days ago

    Your ISP can read any text message you send and view metadata logs of any phone calls you make. In lots of places (like Australia where I live) ISPs are actually required to keep logs of your messages and phone calls

    Why would my Internet Service Provider have anything whatsoever to do with my dumb phone?

    Yes, texts and calls aren’t hidden from your mobile phone provider, they never were. I agree it’s not great, and the government is likely spying on you as they have been for decades.

    But alas, I don’t see a solution without using a non dumb phone and encrypted apps, which will require the internet and at that point you’ve not got a dumb phone any more.

    My Nokia 3310 still works great. Sure, the government could spy on me, but I don’t discuss anything sensitive over the phone (traditionally one doesn’t, for this very reason, wiretaps and the like). It’s a tool for casually staying in touch and arranging to meet up _