As a thinking experiment, let us consider that on the 1st of January of 2025 it is announced that an advance making possible growing any kind of animal tissue in laboratory conditions as been achieved and that it is possible to scale it in order to achieve industrial grade production level.
There is no limit on which animal tissues can be grown, so, any species is achieveable, only being needed a small cell sample from an animal to start production, and the cultivated tissues are safe for consumption.
There won’t be any perceiveable price change to the end consummer, as the growing is a complex and labour intensive process, requiring specialized equipments and personnel.
Would you change to this new diet option?
Reminder that the meat you buy at the grocery store is as also as human modified as it gets and NOTHING like the wild game that our ancestors ate or even the farm animals from 100 years ago. The animal itself is probably GMO, spends its entire life in a steel cage standing in its own shit and piss and is given specialized processed feed to optimize how much meat it produces (or just has a tube down its throat so we don’t have to worry about it eating fast enough). Not to mention tons of antibiotics that are given to the animal just to ensure it survives the hell we put them through which definitely makes it into the meat and therefore into you as well. And they’re slaughtered and butchered by underpaid overworked factory workers who have to balance fulfilling brutal quotas with carefully extracting the meat and not getting it contaminated with shit from the animal’s guts or the myriad other disgusting things around the meat that you wouldn’t want to eat (you can guess how well that usually goes).
Animal cells (without the animal itself and also no central nervous system to experience suffering) growing in a clean, well controlled lab in tanks of sterile cell media doesn’t sound so bad in comparison.
Additional reminder that nearly all of the worst infectious diseases in history have been caused partially or completely by animal agriculture: the plague, spanish flu, smallpox, whooping cough, swine flu, bird flu, covid, etc. So if you’re worried about the long term health implications of lab grown meat, you should be ten times more worried about long term the health implications of regular meat, to the point where you should be worried even if you don’t eat meat.
Is this really up for debate?
Florida bans lab-grown meat, adding to similar efforts in three other states
Much like with the fossil fuel industry squeezing out renewable energies at every opportunity, I suspect we’re going to see the powerful agricultural lobbies shut down competitors until the owners of these big businesses can insert themselves as the sole proprietors of the lab meat industry.
On the flip side, retailers are going to want to drive down their costs, so they’ll only switch when the price drops below the current floor set by firms like Tycoon and Cargill. But once it does… you’ll be foolish to assume what you’re eating isn’t lab grown if it means a business increasing its profits.
The end result will be people who want lab meat finding themselves prohibited from buying it and people who don’t want lab meat unwittingly consuming it.
There exists a world outside corpo US. Like europe which has better competition in every way. Even ads are better here than in the US.
europe which has better competition in every way
M&A is coming for Europe in a big way as the neoliberal policies of the states seep in through all the cracks. 2025 is gearing up to be a big year for Euro bank consolidation. We’ve already seen a lot of the industrial sector hollowed out of the Southern EU states and consolidated in Germany. Crackups like what happened in Yugoslavia in the 90s and border wars like what we’re seeing with Ukraine/Russia have also immolated domestic industry in a way we haven’t seen since the Years of Lead.
Even ads are better here than in the US.
We’ll see how long that lasts. If the UK is a bellweather, it looks like the Elon-ification of your economy is just a matter of time.
European sad agreeing noises
Which protein? Sonic hedgehog? Tell genetic engieneers what protein you want, and they will make yeast make that protein. Or ecoli. Or rice. Or tomato. Or anything else.
I’d try it if the price came down. Fake meat is in the store now but I still eat the real thing. Maybe the current stuff isn’t what OP is talking about.
You haven’t mentioned if there are any ethical concerns with this new meat; e.g. environmental cost of the production process, what kind of human labour is required to create it, who is providing that labour and under what conditions are they working.
Provided I had no ethical concerns with it, sure, but a lot of modern innovations tend to have these issues and I assume lab-grown meat would have these issues too.
Edit: Also, I’m opposed to animal captivity, so if there’s an ongoing need to collect samples from captive livestock then no, I wouldn’t. If it’s a “collect it once then it keeps reproducing from the lab samples forever” type of thing then sure.
In a heartbeat. Although I’d prefer meat alternatives to lab grown meat. Like impossible burgers.
I don’t eat a ton of meat, and I’d like to eat even less. this option would help me feel like I’m not making animals suffer just so I can survive.
Impossible burgers are extremely unhealthy, full of processed flours and additives. It’s best to not eat any “meat” at all, and instead eat whole vegan foods, than eat these things. Lab grown meat, if it’s like real meat, is much more desirable health-wise.
Lab grown beef isn’t going to be healthier than vegan fake meats, you can’t make saturated fat be good for you even if it’s from a lab.
This fear mongering about veg replacement meats is mostly manufactured and not a mainstream view among dietitians.
Saturated fat is not evil, this is an old idea that has been debunked by latest research.
Mixed research has come out, if it was debunked it wouldn’t be nearly so mixed. Regardless, the idea that plant based food is unhealthy because it uses ‘processed flours’ (literally all flours are processed?) is a fringe view.
Processed food is bad, this is common knowledge. Saturated fat is nothing compared to it. These fake burgers are ultra processed in order to feel like meat. Just do a search about processed foods on the guardian and nytimes in the last year. A LOT of new research has come out about it.
I thought you said it was common knowledge. is it groundbreaking research?
Yeah, so does smoking tobacco ! I assure you it has been debunked by Marlboro ! Smoking is healthy !
Can I see the lab?
no
Darnit…
Don’t ask to see a slaughterhouse…
As long at it wasn’t even more destructive than normal cultivation (very much tbd), absolutely.
I had no qualms about switching to Beyond Meat either.
If we could figure out how to make a decent ribeye out of peas and seed oils, I’d prefer that to lab-grown too.
I would be wildly optimistic, but very cautious.
I’d want to see multi-year randomized control trials comparing the bioavailability of not only protein, but also vitamins and minerals from the synthetic meat and liver, to natural meat and liver.
Assuming the RCTs show no issues, then I would happily move over.
Modern meat products are on a spectrum as well, it’s not just having the meat, it’s what the meat ate before it became me that’s important. Grass-fed, versus grain fed for beef. Insect, and protein for chickens, grain fed for chickens etc. antibiotics, hormones being supplemented into the feed to improve yields.
One massive problem the industry globally suffers from is overpromising. Just like multivitamins, which are very poorly bioavailable, and mostly peed out, they promise a lot but don’t deliver much.
Factors I would look for:
- can somebody sustain life eating only the synthetic meat for multiple years?
- oxidative stress, and oxidation in the synthetic food?
- The temptation to engineer sugar, and carbohydrates, directly into the meat to increase sales yields.
Green sustainability:
- can the synthetic meat be produced globally?
- Will poor farmers in the middle of nowhere be improved or hurt by this? Will they have access to the synthetic meat?
- in the event global logistics fail, like an a war, will moving over to synthetic meat severely hurt critical infrastructure and ability to feed populations?
That was a very compreensive answer. You gave me a few thinking points.
I don’t really care about lab grown meat. Haven’t eaten meat for years, don’t really miss it that much since the plant based alternatives have gotten so good.
Give me lab grown dairy.
100%
I did hear, though I can’t remember where, that someone had successfully gotten yeast to produce the protein in milk that is required for cheese.
I’m too lazy today to search for the article on it…
I would sooner argue for eating insects vs. lab-grown protein made by a corporation. I have no trust for corporations to produce safe and emergent solutions to the problems we face as a species and world. They have no incentive to do the right thing and put the brakes on when things are looking bad.
And the insects would be provided by whom if not a huge corpos? You create some false equivalence here, it’s the ages old struggle of lowering the food costs of feeding workers by making us eat worse things. Potatoes instead of wheat, highly process foods, fats and sugars in everything and ultimate fucking step is looming: eating bugs. You can’t go worse than that unless it’s a fucking soylent green which i can guarantee you would be somewhere next in the line after you allow the mega rich to feed you bugs.
I was attempting to communicate that I would sooner argue for eating insects over lab-grown protein mainly because of the danger I see in the concept of a food source that is only able to be produced in a lab, not that I am going to seriously argue for insects to be seen as anything other than a potential option for protein. Plenty of other cultures utilize insects in food willingly, and I’m all about arguing for consent and what’s best for everybody individually.
I think we will have to get very creative to solve our problems with agriculture and food production, and I think all options should be fairly entertained if they can be done in a way that is truly safe while prioritizing the will of the people. I’m of the opinion that our food sources should be more natural and that’s also what I was attempting to touch on.
I always assume any hypothetical beneficial scenario is happening under socialism or another system that discards the profit motive because while we’re dreaming might as well dream big.
Just trying to ground things into our current reality. But yeah, I think in a world where there is an incentive to do good, it’s a no-brainer that we could do stuff like this in a lab and in a much more efficient way than agriculture or raising livestock/etc. for protein sources.
As someone that has the genetic trait that enables me to smell insects… thank you, but no thank you.
Regarding corporations controlling lab meat production: regulation, control, overview.
TIL, and of course I echo the sentiment of the other commenter that those words don’t truly exist here in the US, and I agree with you that the world is a much larger place than the US. I just would hope that European countries (or whatever other countries are concerned about the health of their people) lead the charge if such a solution to our protein came to be.
Those are fairy tail words in the US
There is more to the world than the US.
Hence why I said “in the US” genius…
Why, thank you, Mr. President. It’s an honor to get a compliment from a personality such as yourself.
It would be a novelty at best, though I’m not a big meat eater (flexatarian). I’d rather have tempeh or plant based meat
making meat green? Sure, it would be cheaper and less destructive.
Without hesitation. If the taste, consistency, nutrition, and price are all the same, then the only differences would be whether an animal was bred to suffer until slaughter and the likelihood of illness from consumption. I’m assuming that stuff like e coli would be nearly impossible through this. Plus less demand on farm meat means less chance of coronavirus mutations like the 2009 swine flu outbreak. And less of a need for the real estate, feed, and potable water to grow those animals. I must be missing something because I’m struggling to see a downside here.
I’m sure that, in the same way that there’s still a market for objectively inferior exploitatively mined diamonds as a status symbol instead of lab created diamonds, there would still be a market for rEaL meat where “you can really taste the suffering” or whatever.
Now here’s the more interesting question that actually has me on the fence: if “growing any kind of animal tissue” is what has been achieved, where would you stand on consuming lab-grown human meat? Is it immoral? Are there risks? Should such a thing be restricted in some way like alcohol or handguns? What would be the proper etiquette and presentation and everything if it became socially accepted? What wine would pair best with it? Or would it be more of a beer pairing? If this weren’t socially acceptable, would no-suffering chimpanzee meat be okay?
If it only takes a small cell sample, would it be unethical to dig up extinct animals like mammoths or dodo specifically to enjoy their meat? If that’s okay, and it chimps are okay, would neanderthals be okay to eat? Where would we draw the line?
I’m sure that, in the same way that there’s still a market for objectively inferior exploitatively mined diamonds as a status symbol instead of lab created diamonds, there would still be a market for rEaL meat where “you can really taste the suffering” or whatever.
I don’t think the value is sadism in itself, but the supposed natural purity; it’s the sense of authenticity. They’d be more likely to market it like “As nature intended”, “no nasty chemicals, organic”, “no added dihydrogen monoxide”, like that. You can play on the silly fear of scary chemical names.
I suppose animal furs is a relevant case study. Synthetic alternatives exist, but the real thing is considered a status icon by idiots.
That all said, fuck those cruel idealistic pieces of shit and the suffering they enable.
Now here’s the more interesting question that actually has me on the fence: if “growing any kind of animal tissue” is what has been achieved, where would you stand on consuming lab-grown human meat? Is it immoral?
Human meat, the inevitable question!
I see literally no ethical problem with eating non-sentient lab-grown meat, and I don’t see why it being human flesh should be treated specially. I’m not even trying to equivocate humans and other animals, I don’t consider human meat to be a human being, so there’s no farming torture I’m concerned about, and I care about the meat’s death as much as I care about a jellyfish or grass being squished. It’s not like they’re farming an entire conscious human like The Matrix, that would be uneconomical. (that said, what if humans were lab-grown for scientific research like lab animals? That’s a more confronting question to me!)
Are there risks?
I’m no expert, but I suspect human diseases are more transferable than other animal meat diseases, so that’s a consideration. Contamination is always a concern, I’d assume.
What would be the proper etiquette and presentation and everything if it became socially accepted?
I don’t care. I can buy chicken nuggets and eat them with my elbows, if I want. I’ll do that with human meat too. I already side with Frank Reynolds’ perspective on the whole ‘respect for the dead’ tradition, put me up on a mountain for vultures and flowers like the Zoroastrianists, but this isn’t even a sentient, let alone social, being. The only real etiquette I would consider is to make sure people aren’t unknowingly served it, same with pork and other meats, because that could be unreasonably cruel to someone who is alive.
You’re looking for an answer or just going rethorical?
Asking seriously.
Yeah, asking for real. We might see such a scenario come to pass in my lifetime. If there’s no human suffering and nobody has to die for it to occur, is there anything other than “seems icky” that would stop most people from at least trying human meat at some point in their life? Would it be illegal, legal but restricted, or as legal as beef? If not illegal, would you try it, and if so, how?
Sit down. Grab a drink, if you’re a drinker. Relax.
Story time.
My country was involved in a somewhat civil war between 1961 and 1974. Grisly thing, fought overseas, in many different scenario. For some, it was a holiday season, as the terrain they were deployed to was essentially peaceful or very low combat prone but others saw very harsh conditions, with even lack of combat rations.
On one particular front, things got so ugly, so dire, that at some point people did resort to cannibalism. Well, a mix of cannibalism and necrophagia, as the fresh corpses of the deceased would be dug up during the night, pieces of the flesh harvested and the corpse returned to its grave. Heads were treated as a delicacy.
According to a man that spent three years on that hell and came back alive to tell the story, and now I quote: “tasted like pork, a little sweeter and a bit more oily but it was better than slowly starving to death”. Soldiers and locals alike were reduced to such last resort solutions.
That’s for the taste part.
For the dangers of eating it, there are prion diseases like Kuru. It is always a concern lifted against the consumption of human flesh. Then there are the autoimmune diseases, pathogens and virus we all carry.
Since the theoretical at hand is based on the premise of all meat being lab cultivated, I risk most of those risks would be diminished.
Personally, I wouldn’t eat it. Religious authorities would jump off their rails just on the simple mention of the idea.
Cannibalism was a last resort solution in extreme desperation. Have some nightmare fuel on me.
I appreciate the response. I’d heard that it’s similar to pork, and I’ve heard of prion diseases like kuru being a problem (which might be a non-issue if lab-grown maybe?)
It makes sense for religions to have a problem with it, possibly all meat made this way and not just human as it’s “unnatural” or whatever. I’m no expert on religions of the world, but I’m not aware of any explicit directive to not eat human meat, but it wouldn’t surprise me either way really.
So I guess assuming it were safe to eat which was my assumption, only secular people would really consider it. But maybe a lot of religious people wouldn’t bother with any of the lab grown meat in the first place, so it’s possible that lab grown human meat would be tried by as many people as any of the other options.
You know the difference between a white vegan/vegetarian vs a non white, they don’t try to find something that tastes exactly like a meat. There are a lots and lots of dishes that are 100% vegan/vegetarian and taste much much better and don’t pretend to be meat of any sort.
If you are so tempted by the taste of the meat then just eat it.Environment isn’t going to get any better just because you stopped eating meat, the animal cruelty isn’t going to stop because of you.
I’ve never heard this, bit have tried to explain it to people and failed. If you’re going to try to find a vegan substitute for a thing, most of the time it will fail to impress because it’s not the thing that it’s pretending to be. Take vegan cheese. It’s probably worse for you than regular cheese because it’s super processed.
I have several meals that I make that are vegan, but don’t need to be labeled as vegan because it’s not a substitute. For example, I make chili with those big mushrooms because I like the taste, but I don’t call it a vegan chili, I call it a mushroom chili.
White/non-white vegan? That is uncharted territory for me. Can you expand a little more on that?
oh you know I’m vegan but I just love bacon, and eggs. OK sometimes I like to have a little bit of lobster
I’m a fence sitter on the eggs front, not going to lie.
I had a few chickens for some time, always made sure they were well fed, sheltered and protected from potential predators and at some point they just started laying eggs around. There was no rooster to fertilize the eggs, so… it was just spoiling around.
