I’ve seen around 3 occasions of that this week, altho I have never seen anything like it before.
if I remember correctly they were:
- smack talking a mod (FlyingSquid) for saying not to report the same comment twice, when they were different comments, and the report was spam
- someone comparing .world with .ml in politics (as in there was a comment saying "this post will be overrun with .ml people, and then a comment going “but you are from .world”) (Maybe Im part of the problem? I have been called out for being a fascist because I questioned the “puching nazis” theme)
- one more which I can’t remember.
Anyways, what is all that about? Are people really starting to hate on 50% of the lemmy population because of their instance?
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It’s a battle of political ideologies.
ml is administered by the creators of Lemmy, they are openly socialist/communist/tankie depending on your own ideology, ml was chosen to represent Marxism-Leninism, and so the people it attracted are generally also adhering to this kind of ideologies.
.world was created for Redditors exile, as such, it is mostly center-left to social democrat.Political extremists tend to extremise everything, typically a tankie will call you a Nazi/fascist if you disagree with them. That’s one of your answer.
Secondly, some ml people are frustrated that Lemmy is not their own little thing anymore for them and their friends, as world is the biggest instance now by far. So they show some kind of instance-xenophobia, not much different from the Great Replacement theory: “we are being culturally replaced through mass migration”.
Not all .ml people are like that of course. In my experience, it is enough to block a few tankies to get back to civilized discussions.
I made the mistake of being an anarchist on ml and hexbear.
Waay, waaaaaay too many tankies getting insanely pissed off and swarm when you criticize (point out obvious facts, really) any non US/Western countries or allies along anarchist lines.
It rapidly devolves into idpol, rants and tirades that are barely related to the topic or comment, Fox News style ‘I’m just asking questions in good faith’ which are obviously not in good faith if you’re older than maybe 10.
I dare someone to go ml or grad or hex and attempt to have a serious and thorough conversation about the Sino-Vietnamese war. Or Uighurs. Or the Holodomor. Or whether the concept of self-determination applies to Ukraine, Taiwan, and Palestine at the same time.
I remember at one point explaining a meme that popped up on some China’s social media site that boiled down to ‘Deng Xiaoping’s reforms have led to Chinese women craving giant Black cocks’, and all of them being just fine with incels and racism when its not Westerners doing it.
Craziest part is when they horseshoe so hard that you have ‘communists’ arguing that LGBTQ are degenerate vermin. Although that is more rare, it does happen.
EDIT: Its somewhat sad, as it is great fun when everyone is dogpiling on some new latest insane western neocolonialism or corporate incompetence/hellscape type stuff, but I treat those places like Ravenholm:
We don’t go there anymore.
Craziest part is when they horseshoe so hard that you have ‘communists’ arguing that LGBTQ are degenerate vermin
That’s an instaban from hb, grad, and .ml, did you report that post?
Anarchists aren’t allowed to report queerphobia on Hexbear. Because Hexbear keeps banning anarchists.
This is false. Anti-AES anarchists are banned, because sectarianism is banned.
Drag has no problem with the Advanced Encryption Standard, which is the first Google result for AES.
Already existing communism
Oh, well drag isn’t one of those! Drag thinks communism has existed for 60,000 years in Australia, and a long time in many other places too. It’s a shame Russia and China were corrupted by the siren song of state capitalism before they managed to implement the Australian model. If only they’d been more like Catalonia.
Better to die a communist than to engage in trade relations with Nazi Germany during the holocaust.
I have had way more issues with .ml communities than .world
ML was basically designed to be an echo chamber, it’s right there in the name.
.world is the one that “preemptively defederated HB and grad, as a last resort” due to such scary views as opposing NATO and the IMF.
There are sophisticated and nuanced critiques to be made of Western power projection, soft and hard. “Nuanced” and “sophisticated” are not words appropriate to the average hexbear or lemmygrad denizen’s take on geopolitics, and for those of us who live in the real world rather than living to argue over how many Maos can dance on the tip of the icepick that killed Trotsky, the loud and unrelenting naysaying of anything less extreme than “armed proletarian revolution now!” got to be incredibly tiresome, not to mention the constant cheerleading of brutally-repressive regimes that don’t have any values in common with actual socialists or communists just because they oppose the US and its allies.
The constant cheerleading of brutally-repressive regimes that don’t have any values in common with actual socialists or communists just because they oppose the US and its allies.
This is my main issue with tankies. Yeah, late-stage capitalism sucks and exploits the layman to enrich the rich further—I take no issue with that. It’s the knob-slobbering of Putin, Xi Jinping, and Kim Jong Un that makes no sense. Modern-day Russia, China, and North Korea have about as much in common with communism as oat milk has with milk: nothing but the name.
as oat milk has with milk: nothing but the name.
Drag thinks oat milk is milk. Drag isn’t convinced that cow’s milk is real milk, though. Milk comes from a plant, drag isn’t sure something from an animal’s boob counts. Chemically it’s too different from milk to call it the same thing.
So, Drag thinks countries that act as though their neighbors are part of a greater whole ruled by them as the motherland, and have political structures where the governing body consists of a small cohort (and not the proletariat) are communist?
That’s imperialism, buddy.
Let me know when: 1) China stops trying to exert absolute control over Tibet, Taiwan, and Hong Kong; 2) North Korea accepts that their ownership ends where their globally-recognized territory ends; 3) Russia stops invading neighboring countries; and 4) All three of them abolish the ruling class and give the power to the people.
December edit: This is a regretful instance of me being needlessly antagonistic.
I think practicality is the only important thing here, if something looks and tastes like milk, and can be used as milk in 98% of cases, it’s fine to call it a type of milk.
Certainly if we’re gonna call peanut butter peanut butter just because it spreads like butter, despite having no other similarity, there’s no reason to split hairs over things that are interchangeable with milk.
Thanks for asking this btw. Just found it with a quick search wondering the same thing after reading yet another comment section (this one about Trump, Musk and JD Vance) that turned into 50% whinging about .world mods/admin and horrible reddit users turning their lemmy into a shithole. The answers you got here were really helpful for me to understand a bit more about the context/history of these spaces.
No problem, I was just curious, and I guess you had the same question :)
World is the biggest instance. I think this is just a case of people seeing problems there more often. I’m not convinced it’s inherently worse than other places.
.world is the biggest instance and therefore a prime choice for trolls to create accounts. Most of the trash posts I’ve seen lately are from brand new users on lemmy.world
I am equally suspicious of brand new lemmy.world users as I am of veterans of lemmy.ml. Older accounts on .world are usually pretty normal.
This is why I chose lemmynsfw. No one doubts our intent
A big number of instances don’t federate with lemmynsfw though, so there’s a lot of users who don’t see the messages of the users from that instance.
Thank the gods.
I want to upvote you, but your tally is at 69 right now.
I like to think of myself as normal lol
I’m here because kbin.social died and this was my next oldest account
lemmy.world is popular, which has its pros and cons. At least you didn’t pick hexbear lol
I moved to fedia.io because it is basically kbin.social, but working.
I moved to kbin.earth (which later migrated to mbin).
I tried fedia.io, but it’s mobile website design is pure ass. It’s nice on my tablet, where there’s more room for the design to breathe a bit…but smooshed together on the cell phone layout, nothing makes sense. I want to like it, but I’m only on my tablet like 20% of the time. Cell phone is my main use.
There is an app: https://github.com/jwr1/interstellar/releases/tag/v0.6.0
Haven’t heard of the news. Do you mind telling me what happened to kbin?
The developer and admin, Ernest, went through a rough patch in his life. Development and server upkeep fell off during this time, and it wasn’t picked back up again. I don’t think anyone’s heard from him in a long while now, but I don’t really know.
In my experience (hexbear and .ml instances excluded) the majority of trolls I encounter seems to be from either infosec.pub or blahaj.zone
I don’t find any issues on .world. Yeah some people say dumb stuff, but that’s just the world isn’t it? I am sure there are others who think the same of me. It’s whatever, some people getting mad at .world are just mad they’re not in an echo chamber.
But other people complaining about trolls are right, there’s just no place for that. Report, block and move on. It’s not your job to educate anyone.
Are people really starting to hate on 50% of the lemmy population because of their instance?
You betcha buddy. Joking. For myself, at least.
Idk what’s going on with Flying Squid, but a lot of the trolls accounts I see are from .world so people are probably starting to associate that instance with those kinds of people.
I don’t think FlyingSquid is a troll; I just think they tend to be argumentative and opinionated (I can be those things as well, so I’m not really judging when I say so).
The Troll thing I mentioned was more regarding the hate for .world accounts. I’m a little skeptical of some, especially the newer ones.
I’ve seen some of Flying Squids’ comments, but its not like I’ve been following them closely. I don’t think they’re saying anything wrong, based on what I’ve seen. I wouldn’t begrudge someone for being passionate. That just shows me they care.
People on reddit used to think I was lying about stuff I did in my youth, because nobody would do those things today. I absolutely did them. I wasn’t on drugs, most of the time, I’m just a weird person who stopped giving a FUUUUUUUCK about people in kindergarten when I gave Tim Caldwell a teenage mutant ninja turtles fruit pie…and he FUCKING THREW IT ON THE GROUND!!! I’m sorry, you do NOT throw a 1980s green ooze TMNT hostess fruit pie ON THE FUCKING GROUND when a fat kid gives you one! You treasure that shit, that he thought highly enough of you to give you one! It was at that moment I realized that other people do no matter. I’m the greatest human being alive, and I no longer need to worry about other people or the consequences of my actions.
So I threw my pants down, threw him to the ground, and sat on his face. Nothing sexual. I was 5. So was he. I was just humiliating him on the school yard, by shoving my butt in his face.
But on reddit, they would say things like “Pics or it didn’t happen!”. And I would reply “Let me get this straight…you want me to send you pictures of my bare ass when I was 5 years old? Even if those pictures existed, sending them, or even having them in my OWN possesion would be highly illegal!”
They didn’t think that through. But I’m not a troll. I’m just an idiot.
Based purely on this comment alone. You seem to have the most fitting username I’ve ever seen. That was wild read lol. Thanks for the laugh.
Is it concerning that me reading your comment didn’t narrow it down WHICH comment you were replying to AT ALL for me? 100% of the time I need to click the context button to know whatevery anyone is talking about. My comments range from the politically divisive, to the absurdist satire, to stories of days gone by…and any story involving me is already going to be weird.
Drag likes you and likes weird.
I don’t hate LW, I even regularly post to a few LW communities. The sysadmins do a good job. There are a few debatable moderation decisions, but those are usually documented on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com
The main issues I have with it is
- centralization of communities coupled with the current federation implementation creating 7-days delay for instance like aussie.zone (see !fedimemes@feddit.uk for a meme and discussion on that topic)
- their communities being the default means they can take controversial decisions and impact a topic for everyone until an alternative community emerges. See all the debates with the Media Bias Fact Checker bot, which in the end got removed from !world@lemmy.world (!globalnews@lemmy.zip for an alternative) but apparently it still on !politics@lemmy.world
- another consequence of centralization is impact of their being unavailable. People here might remember August 2023 when LW was under consistent DDoS attack, it was barely usable. This prevented a third of Lemmy total users to use Lemmy. Should they face a similar issue in the future, most of the Lemmy communities would be unusable.
Another point I haven’t seen mentioned is that they are still federated with Threads: https://fedipact.veganism.social/
They are the last large instance which still is.
deleted by creator
Its an incredibly pro US biased instance despite not being hosted in the US and having a .world domain.
Greatest hits are politics@lemmy.world forbidding non-US topics and of course news@lemmy.world and its bias check bot according to which every non US media is left wing biased.
To be fair, considering the right wing hellscape our (US) Overton window overlooks the bias bot might actually have a point.
The bot is bad and jonsjava is a real piece of shit just by themself.
God that fucking bot.
The bot itself is only mildly offensive, but the fieflord bot-love is just repugnant.
About a month ago news did a “feedback about the bot” thing, in which they declared undying love for the bot above all things and declared any input other than breathless support for the bot to be vote manipulated misinformation.
There were about 3 mods involved, all contradicting each other, and themselves, very condescending, and very sooky and sulky. “One of the mods almost resigned over this!” kind of stuff.
You had to start every comment with “look I know you guys are doing your best and investing all your free time as volunteers but…”
Because it’s bad.
Not surprised this is coming from an ml user one bit
.world runs into issues because it’s overwhelmingly liberal and the mods are anti-Marxist on a platform built by Communists and dominated by leftists in general. They also defederated from the major Marxist instances. Lemmy.world is largely a replication of Reddit as well, so people leaving Reddit also don’t necessarily want that either.
It’s also by far the largest instance, not necessarily in a good way. It tends to dominate the fediverse and thus their mods and admins have an outsized voice, even if federation helps combat that issue.
Plenty of people like Lemmy.world, you’ll get different answers if you asked on another community like Lemmy.ml’s AskLemmy.
They also defederated from the major Marxist instances.
From what I recall the issue was that users from those instances acted like weapons grade cunts and it was just easier to defederate from them rather than the admins and mods have to deal with all the issues that came with them. They didn’t block them simply because they’re Marxist instances.
They defederated from Hexbear “as a last resort-” before ever federating with Hexbear.
In the Lemmygrad defederation thread, there’s unsupported claims of hate speech and calls to violence, which we have to fill in the blanks - the mods are anti-Marxist and anti-revolution, so any Marxist instance is going to fail that test.
The Hexbear defederation thread is somehow worse when they list why instead of leaving it to the imagination. Read some of the top comments, it’s clear that it was anti-Socialist in motive. Real spooky scary zingers listed as evidence in the post like “The West’s role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.” This statement is 100% obvious to anyone not stanning the US Empire.
Another example listed is “These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term “rules-based international order.” It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.” Yet again, they are defederated for being Marxists, and therefore being revolutionary. This is just because they are authentically Marxist, not because posters were mean.
The mods of Lemmy.world are Liberals. Not just any liberals, but “true believers.” Marxism is dangerous to them and so they shut it out, they spelled it out plainly.
Because the pedantic shit that the socialist get away with in .ml, Hexbear, and Lemmygrad doesn’t fly here. And because of this, they accuse .World of bias while completely ignoring the fact that their own instances ban people for simply being “liberal.”
Drag is an anarchist and doesn’t much like liberal LW or authoritarian ML.
My biggest problem with .world is that people will just make up whatever they want about the out-group and everyone just believes it without question and with no interest in examining the
evidence.It’s a toxic element of the site’s culture that encourages circle-jerking and the automatic dismissal of opposing viewpoints while making intelligent and informed discussion impossible.The moderation is also pretty heavy-handed with censorship and things get removed for “misinformation” pretty frequently just because the mods disagree with it. You don’t have to go very far back in the modlog right now to find removed posts from Cowbee and Alcoholicorn, despite both backing up their arguments with published books from respectable authors. It’s best to avoid engaging with the mods at all, I got banned from World News because a mod couldn’t defend their position so they just banned me. There’s a pretty clear bias towards NATO and the US.
But like I said my main issue is the first point, and I’ll stop judging .worlders when I start to see people actually ask for evidence when someone says, “I saw a bunch of tankies eating kittens” instead of just blindly accepting it as fact because it’s about an out-group.
out-group
Can it be an out-group and also have totalitarian control of the platform structure?
These people made Lemmy. Sorry if their numbers are lower than average. I guess next time around they can make a no libruls allowid sign or something so the other 98% of humans know not to ruin their great fun.
totalitarian control
Lmao y’all are wild. Why are you on a platform where people you don’t like have, “totalitarian control” over the structure? Is it, perhaps, because they used this “totalitarian control” to create a structure that was decentralized and allowed communities to form that operated on different rules and different views? Doesn’t sound very totalitarian if you ask me.
Where’s that Parenti quote? Oh, found it! Evergreen quote:
"During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.
If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum."
-Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds
Some of the dumbest and most aggressive comments I’ve seen on Lemmy came from lemmy.world. Most comments on it seem OK, but it does have a reddit-like flavour with a good number of unpleasant users.
A lot of this boils down to consequences of lemmy.world being the largest instance: typical Reddit users beeline for it, trolls go there, larger comms so more frequent issues with moderation, people who fail to distinguish between “we shouldn’t concentrate our activity into the largest instance” and “largest instance bad! EDIT WOW THANKS FOR LE GOLD TO LE KNEE KIND STRANGER!”, so goes on.
Back when reddit* was just starting to fall to shit, I had already been dipping my toes in the mastodon water, and while I really liked the instance I was on it did not have enough people on it to properly surface good collections of off node traffic.
Knowing that Mastodon had the problem, I didn’t dick around with smaller nodes. To be honest it’s still a fight if you’re on a node with only a handful of people, you have to do something to mitigate the lack of community traffic in the face of lacking discoverability.
People are doing that here though - e.g. the user Blaze made accounts on basically every instance, and subscribed to every community. This gets around the limitation where at least one user of an instance must subscribe to a community before it will even so much as show up for others to also subscribe. Really the developers should have made better automation so that this was not necessary, but… anyway it works, for now:-).
I feel like ActivityPub implemented federation in a really weird way, and that’s what causes problems like @linearchaos@lemmy.world is reporting, or the issue that Blaze is addressing through multi-accounting. Perhaps we shouldn’t be sharing content across instances but only credentials.
For example. If you’re registered to instance A, and B federates with A, then B would let you post from your A account as if you were registered to B. Then let the retrieval of the content of different instances up to the front-end, instead of mirroring it.
Ease discovery of federated communities has been funded: https://join-lemmy.org/news/2024-09-11_-_New_NLnet_funding_for_Lemmy
Also, thank you for the comment above
Ease discovery of federated communities has been funded: https://join-lemmy.org/news/2024-09-11_-_New_NLnet_funding_for_Lemmy
That’s some great news! It’s great to see that the issues are being ironed out.
No, the whole point for the federation is to share the content. For one, it allows redundancy so that if a rogue mod or admin decided to delete a bunch of stuff, then every other instance still retains copies of what came from it.
But that said, having to keep everything up to the second, in batches of a single action, is extremely limiting. If I downvote someone with an accidental button press, then undownvote them, then upvote - that could have been just one net interaction to send, but instead it is three.
Redundancy is better handled through specialised mirrors, similar in spirit to reveddit. That would be even more transparent than the current system - as the mirrors could translate actions like content removal into content highlighting, so it would stick out like a sore thumb*. This would also throw the burden associated with redundancy (transmission, storage, removal of clearly illegal content) into a few machines, instead of the whole network.
I’m aware that it’s a weaker form of federation than the current one but, as long as the front-end handles simultaneous multi-account and merges the feeds of the instances that you’re registered to, it’s already addressing the main needs:
- users can see content from multiple places without registering individually to each
- users don’t need to see what they don’t want to
- content is still spread out, so no instance controls the whole
- admins still have control over who accesses their own instance (through defederation + banning).
*currently you can only find a piece of removed content if you know that it exists.
At a wild guess, it could literally be the communism?
No really, I’m serious: what you are describing sounds to me like there is a sense of “ownership”, as in an instance owns a community, whereupon everything else is lesser than the owner with respect to that particular content - e.g. the others “mirror” the content that is “owned” by the instance that the community is on. A master/slave relationship, in computer science terminology.
In contrast, ActivityPub sounds to me (caveat: I’ve never read the source) like everyone is equal, hence why every action is shared equally by all. A distributed burden. Except without the major traditional benefits of it being distributed - i.e. Aussie.Zone cannot simply connect to some other server instance with less physical distance between it and Lemmy.World, no it must go straight to the source, even when that results in a 7-day delay (and even that cutoff is only because things older than that simply get deleted).
On the other hand, there’s nothing stopping someone from not respecting the deletion requests, and instead highlighting that content, in the current Lemmy framework. It would definitely be a deviation from the standard codebase though. And therefore every time there’s an update or patch, there would have to be a merge event to keep that feature functional.
I wonder if the reason your idea is not done is bc it relies too much on “trusting” the client for security reasons? Although… tbf I’m not certain how much that would differ from how things are now.
I’m not sure if the analogy with communism holds well, as communism implies post-scarcity. Perhaps socialism - if you see the current AP protocol as the Soviet economy from 1918 to 22, my proposal is basically a Lenin style New Economic Policy: a step back (less federation) to take two steps forward later (federation growth).
As for the mirrors, secondary (as in backup) would be a good analogy; their main reason to exist would be to make admins+mods accountable. (“Why did you remove [content]? It’s within the rules, even if you disagree with it!”). And ideally it should be possible for a single mirror to work for multiple instances, specially smaller ones. In the meantime, the actual (non-mirror) instances would be on equal grounds.
In contrast, ActivityPub […]
As far as I know, as someone who didn’t read the source either, that’s accurate. aussie.zone is basically mirroring the content of federated instances, to service its users, then when some aussie.zone user posts something there the other instances mirror it.
On the other hand, there’s nothing stopping someone from not respecting the deletion requests, and instead highlighting that content, in the current Lemmy framework. It would definitely be a deviation from the standard codebase though. And therefore every time there’s an update or patch, there would have to be a merge event to keep that feature functional.
In theory, there isn’t. In practice:
- AFAIK this is not something that Lemmy or Mastodon were coded for. It’s unsupported so the person doing it would need to maintain their own fork of the relevant software.
- This becomes specially problematic once users from the non-deleting instance interact with content that, for other instances, has been deleted.
I wonder if the reason your idea is not done is bc it relies too much on “trusting” the client for security reasons? Although… tbf I’m not certain how much that would differ from how things are now.
If I had to take a guess, the reason why W3C, Lemmer-Webber and Prodromou created the AP the current way is because, while you’re raising a baby, you never know the growing pains that it’ll have as a teen.
Lemmy.world users generally hold ridiculous, unrealistic leftist positions and do not have any concept of people who might have any other more moderate left positions
This is absolutely true.
Lol
