The only thing worse than an echo chamber is letting a self-created bad idea fester in the head.
I came to the conclusion a few months ago that software developers and coders who worked at Meta, Google, Amazon, etc are as culprit as their CEOs and the company itself. I will lay down my points below, but I understand that this might be a logical extreme of my distaste for these corporations.
Here’s my rationale:
- Actions of the company they serve: The corporations they serve actively disenfranchise users, track them, sell their private / personal information to unscrupulous parties without any care on how it affects the person, or the society. They thrive on engagement rather than content. They have “commodified” the fundamental right to privacy. This has real world implications that has directly resulted in the spread of misinformation, political unrest, threatened elections, riots, and deaths of thousands of people.
- Awareness of the consequences: By virtue of their position, these are people with the capacity to read, and think for themselves. There are news articles: across the political spectrum in all major news sites, that report how the platform/ company they serve negatively affects society. Facebook’s Cambridge Analytica fiasco, Snowden’s expose, etc are credible and well documented examples that even non-tech people are aware. Yet they choose to ignore all this, and continue working / seek to join these companies.
- Cowardice: It is often wrapped in the garb of “self-interest”, but they do not raise their voice when they know that the software and platform they’re told to develop is going to be used to spy on their brethren. They claim they’re trying to make a living, but can use their skills to develop counter products to these horrible companies, or work for those that are sensitive and conscientious towards customer’s needs and welfare.
I wouldn’t work at those companies, but I wouldn’t say the developers who work there are quite as evil as the directors at those companies. It’s true they were just doing their job, like they were just following orders, but people do need to work at the end of the day. Whether they work there for prestige, or for the pay, and sure you could argue nobody needs that pay, we have already seen people who stick their necks out at those companies get their heads chopped off. Not everyone who works there is going to be fine with (or worse, happy with) how evil the companies are, but also not everyone there is going to stick their neck out either. In summary, I don’t think it’s fair to blame the developers who work there. I once worked at a mid-sized advertising company, they hid that they were an advertising company and at that point it was too late.
Besides, not everyone has enough experience that they can quit their job at the drop of a hat, especially in this pro-business layoff-heavy economy.
At the end of the day people need to make a living. Also I am not sure why you are so upset by these companies. You don’t need to use there products.
If you’re able to get a job at Meta/Google/etc, you’re also able to get a job at a less shitty company.
“No ethical consumption under capitalism” is the new “just following orders.” If you can afford the product, you can afford to buy something more ethical.
Don’t you need to go really out of your way to not get caught in their web of data mongering by using any part of the internet?
You CAN take steps to limit your exposure in varying levels of effort, the problem is a lot of that means “not using the thing” (ie gmail, Facebook, etc) and most people are not about that life, gripe as they might.
I’ve paid for private email hosting for over 5 years, run grapheneOS on my phone, my fb is deactivated with messenger having limited perms on my phone and kept in an isolated container on desktop, self host a number of services like password management and storage - etc etc.
Am I safe from big tech? Not completely. There’s still 1000 ways your business gets out and about, and on desktop I still use YouTube logged in and all (no yt on phone though.) They’re still only getting a small fraction from me compared to other people though.
Sure, but if you really cared, then you’d put in the effort. Or are you “just following orders”?
The point is that he blames the people working for these companies with a blanket statement while not taking any responsibility for his own agency in the situation. It’s a lot more nuanced than just “why don’t these other people do x.” It’s like “vote with your wallet” vs. “no ethical consumption under capitalism.”
You’re right but… Capitalism is a good system to chew that out of you. You touch on it in point three. Seeing how Snowden was treated was not reassuring that the electorate would back you, or the free market for that matter.
It’s not new, but yeah.
Re 1: People keep lumping Google with Amazon and Meta, but Google does not sell your private data. People keep assuming that because the general tech community does this that Google does it too, but check their privacy policy or just ask anyone who’s worked there.
User data at Google is locked up tighter than fort knox. That’s why the Snowden leak was such a huge deal, because the NSA was taking advantage of a security flaw that Google didn’t know it had to scrape user data. Google patched it immediately after they found out.
Amazon, Meta, and Uber, are much less scrupulous.
Its a fair point, and definitely worth pointing out. They aren’t as bad as the others in that very specific way, which is commendable for now while it suits them. The moment they can make more money by selling vs. holding your data, I have no doubts they will pivot.
Google is as bad as the others but in different ways. I‘m dont have the time to research for you rn but just check monopoly cases against google. I hope they get broken up.
Look I never said I disagree. My point to OP is just please don’t make up shit that straight up isn’t true. Pick a real issue, not some made up paranoia.
The disturbing part about this is that people are able to trick themselves and others into believing this.
Even if (and thats a big if) google does not outright sell your personal data, their business is to use it to influence people in ways that have scientifically proven to not work in their self interest. This data is bei g collected illegally in part and „legally“ in others.
The issue here is giving third parties the tools to unnaturally mass influence the world towards interests that are contrary to the actual needs of the world (climate catastrophe comes to mind).
Yeah kinda sets up a dangerous quid pro quo situation where the govt gets to go around due process by asking nicely and so has no incentive to improve privacy rights
The government had a warrant, read the article.
It’s just made confusing by the fact that the thief had signed into the victim’s phone, so it makes for a good clickbait story “police got the wrong guy’s data”
My brother in Christ, you first.
The govt had a warrant:
that required Google to provide information on all devices it recorded near the killing, potentially capturing the whereabouts of anyone in the area.
Reiterating my point, it’s just as useful for the govt to not pass laws to protect private harvesting of our data as it is for the corporations selling it.
The police told the suspect, Jorge Molina, they had data tracking his phone to the site where a man was shot nine months earlier. They had made the discovery after obtaining a search warrant that required Google to provide information on all devices it recorded near the killing, potentially capturing the whereabouts of anyone in the area.
I hate Google as much as everyone here, but we shouldn’t equate complying with a warrant to “give it to the cops when asked.” They were required to give it.
If by “when asked” you mean “given a search warrant with very clear evidence that this man had stolen a car”, then… Yes? I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here.
The ex-boyfriend had signed into the guy’s phone. It’s not like the police just cast a wide net and randomly got his data.
Cuz you asked me to talk you down here:
If you expand upon the ‘trite’ phrase “theres no ethical consumption under capitalism” (which itself is talking about how capitalism as a system can not be ethical since any product you buy is owned by a company who “steals” most of the value the workers provide), there is also no ethical work.
in other countries and historically in the us, unions sought not only fair wages and compensation but also representation at the Csuite. The ability to affect the policy of the company.
But that’s long gone. How does one who hopes to work for a “ethical” company go about it? What is they are alright but one of their vendors is shitty? A company they choose to contact with? What if they merge with a shitty one 5 years after you start?
I’m saying, if you want to be talked down, How is what you’re asking of people even possible? I can’t even keep track of who owns the food i buy anymore! Speaking of, these ethical workers are gone burn out studying unethical companies to work at, be sheltered by and buy food from. that reminds me that yeah, there’s the whole thing about people needing to work to eat.
Don’t blame the little guy, they been using that trick to split us a loooong time. Blame them, those who have the power.
Europe does have some Union representation in the corporate org structure, fwiw. How much that helps… well… i’m not sure, i haven’t seen it up close.
There’s no ethical consumption under capitalism. And yet, we’re still forced into capitalism, with little choice but to participate or starve. You can object to a system and say that it’s unethical, but also necessarily play into that system.
We all gotta eat. Long as there’s our current form of capitalism, we all gotta pay rent (or mortgage). Until those needs relax, we’re essentially saying “pick between your needs and being a good person.” One of our strongest drives is to survive, and so if the only way for some to survive is off the backs of others, it’s the inevitable outcome.
Of course we should all be striving to change this. Effective change comes from slow, repeated effort though, not just fruitlessly chasing an ethical job. If you just stay where you are, then that’s fine. Do what you can from within, safely. We all do that, and we’ll slowly steer this ship.
I once worked for a big finical company. Things were great I made lots of money they matched my 401k. Then COVID happened. After watching this big financial company continue to charge interest when, I my manager and his boss knew people couldn’t afford to even make payments on their existing debt. Debt they had when the word COVID didn’t even exist and when they had a job it effected me and my sobriety. People saying, “We’re all in this together” brought me to an indescribable rage. I still know people that work there but I don’t think I could call them friends. They’re still complicit in keeping the poor, poor and making the executives richer. I just checked they’re on $177 billion in assets and meanwhile charging interest during a pandemic.
If you work for an information broker as a free service you’re just as complicit in this fucked up system of self interest over collective success. Good post op.
Do you blame the railway workers for putting down the rails that allowed nazi germany to move people into concentration camps highly efficiently?
The rails that exclusively went to the camps? Yeah.
but only if they carried the jews into the camps since other people did not suffer during WW2
?
No. But if u r a rail worker in Germany, Hitler is clearly talking about murdering minorities and u r aware of this information and yet u stay, then yes. U r complicit in the crimes of Hitler.
New?
You’re correctly assessing the situation but the conclusion you reach is wrong. Here’s how:
As another person said, just tack on no ethical consumption under capitalism and you’re golden. Soon you’ll be crunching through critiques of Goldman and speaking in ways that make normal ppl make the brotha eww face. But the big difference between just doing my job and just following orders is degrees of separation and situation.
Even though people in positions you describe at companies you’re talking about ought to be able to understand the connection between their work and the immiseration of all humanity, it’s very easy to imagine someone who through choice or ignorance doesn’t see that connection. Our higher education programs have been removing humanities and arts in favor of stem associated education and ideas like effective altruism are renewing the randian tradition. Further, the work of many people in engineering is partial and atomized. Who wouldn’t want to put in the time designing a hermetically sealed self oiling piston that never needs maintenance over a million cycles? Who wouldn’t refuse that job when shown the patent drawing in which it’s a crucial component of a captive bolt gun against a human head?
The situation itself can’t be undersold. Soldiers (and hired workers!) on trial for war crimes couldn’t claim they were just following orders because they saw directly what their labor wrought. There was no degree of separation. Our expectations for that closeness to atrocity are different than when there’s a few veils between us and the subject. We expect people to get a different job, to defect, to sabotage, to kill their COs.
You’re not wrong. The whole system is governed by fear. It is the operating principle by which this world operates.
Anyone that says “I’m just doing my job” living their life based on fear, and not reason. All it does is give the psychopaths running everything more power.
We need to stop being afraid. Believe it or not, it is a choice. You can wake up every morning happy, and at total peace. No matter what is happening in your life. Mind over matter, as they say.
I’m more concerned about the sociopaths that try to run everything: the ones who have no qualms running through anybody who tries to get in their way.
If you are aware of criminal or unethical actions by your employer… By staying and contributing… You are as guilty as those doing those actions.
If your ethics can be altered for money or power or success
They weren’t really your ethics. Their Just lies you tell yourself
This is an extremist take on a correct conclusion. Just like how “vote with your wallet” and “no ethical consumption under capitalism” can co-exist, so can the idea that there are people in these jobs who simply don’t care about the harm as well as people who do but don’t have the power to do anything about it - even something as simple as changing jobs.
An easy example is the people left at Twitter. When employees started quitting in droves after Musk started tearing the company apart, I saw people quickly theorizing that the people still working there fell into 2 groups: those who were morally bankrupt enough not to care, and those on work visas who couldn’t quit because they risked being deported.
The majority of these companies are based in the US, where workers’ rights and protections are often tenuous at best. Whistleblowers have almost no protections and, more often than not, end up serving years or even lifetime sentences in federal jails for their efforts. In most states, it is completely legal for companies to fire you for whatever reason they feel like, and even if you get severance, it can take years of legal battles to get what you’re owed. Add to that how long it can take to find a new job (the average time in the video game industry is 2 months), and it’s easy to see how that can quickly spiral into putting people into a dangerous financial situation for daring to speak out.
It’s easy to lay the blame at other people’s feet, but just like saying, “Well, just don’t use their products then,” it’s never that simple.
For a large chunk of my career, I worked in aerospace and ‘defense’ machining. Made all kinds parts for all kinds of weapons, it was really cool! Murica! As I got older, I lost my religion, I lost the far right brainwashing I was raised with.
My hands were making weapons that the US government was often selling to other countries. My hands were making weapons to kill various groups of brown people all over the world. It really began to bother me.
I no longer make things to kill people.
Yes, you are culpable for the effects of what you produce in your profession. A thinking person should consider the effects of their work.
I generally agree. If you work for an Evil Corp, you are just as culpable.
