• sub_ubi@lemmy.ml
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        17 hours ago

        dot world was so paranoid they they banned it prior to federation

            • Maeve@midwest.social
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              13 hours ago

              I read the post. What is fascinating is how much and how recently I dismissed “tankie” rhetoric out of hand like that, until a couple of very patient comment threads where I suspended disbelief, asked broad, open-ended questions, considered the answers given, and actually read any links provided and looked up other sources, besides. I only vehemently disagreed with a few points, and having already realized how much my own history (world and US) had been whitewashed or simply omitted decades prior, started rethinking cherished beliefs still held, and went waaaay back to a technique used in a college class (university, though not really by global standards, but I did luck into a few really good professors, before adjuncts were so widely used), “critical thinking” which was a prereq of syllogistic logic, which was required, along with a bunch of soc classes: we were presented a controversial topic each Monday, required to state our side, and by Friday were required to turn in a well-researched and cited essay convincingly arguing the opposite stance. It already changed my views on a lot, so I just started doing the research and credible source cites without paper, which turned out to be a lot faster and easier than it was then, obviously. Holy moly, I set out to prove myself wrong and easily did so with mostly mainstream sources, it just took learning how to search, which I’m still doing. It’s just that we’ve been brainwashed from birth, and since I’m right on the cusp of boomer/x Gen, if this old dog can do it, anyone can, with sufficient time, which seems deliberately constrained by the capitalist mechanisms. I have more time than many, but still regular responsibilities and obligations, and it’s still not as rapid as I’d prefer, and my brain is slower now, but if people could suspend disbelief and rather than try to prove themselves right, which leads to confirmation bias, try to prove themselves wrong, imagine the world we could have! And that’s not having even dug deeply into theory, yet.

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                7 hours ago

                Glad to hear it!

                And that’s not having even dug deeply into theory, yet.

                What have you read so far? I can make some good recs if you want.

                • Maeve@midwest.social
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                  6 hours ago

                  Grand rising. I only reread The Communist Manifesto from college (paperback) and Capital a few months ago, and I found this somewhere on .ml instance and plan to start after I finish hurricane cleanup and some neighborhood issues. I believe I’ve seen you recommend The State and Revolution? which I’d planned next, but if you have better suggestions for my neophyte self (maybe 1-3 at a time, that would be great, especially if I can find them on invidious and can listen while doing household cleanup and regular chores). Thanks so much!

    • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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      18 hours ago

      Believe it or not, socialists don’t universally self-segregate onto the socialist instances.

        • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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          15 hours ago

          It’s only us vs the billionaires! Don’t let them try to pit us against each other!

          Anyone who owns more than two houses deserves to die!

          Anyone who works X job is a bastard, no matter how much good they do.

          No, I will not run for local elections.

          No, I will not give up Xitter I need it to follow my niche artists despite them having accounts on multiple other platforms including BlueSky.

          No I will not give up Facebook. I need it to poke meemaw and check the marketplace for things I’ll never buy or sell because Craigslist amirite?

          At least all you twats use ETA less than they do on reddit. That bugs me way more than it should.

      • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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        19 hours ago

        There’s also the part that is into crushing with a tank people who don’t hate the USA more than anything in the universe.

        • CazzoneArrapante@lemm.ee
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          7 hours ago

          Honestly I feel like most people on here are just tired of the ultra-capitalistic hell neoliberalism threw us into and want a better system that doesn’t rape dry the Earth and doesn’t allow companies to have the same wealth as entire states. Those people you mention are just a very loud, screaming minority.

          • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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            5 hours ago

            I’m part of these people, I think most of them are social democrat and don’t have any illusion about supposedly socialist countries.
            Yes, they are a minority since .world became the biggest player, but they are still very visible if you mention those subjects and countries, they are going to pop up.

                • ThirdWorldOrder@lemm.ee
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                  Ah… so let me get this straight. So instead of being poor in a capitalist country, you’d rather be poor in a communist country?

                  Edit: JFC dude. Why are there so many of these types on Lemmy

              • eskimofry@lemmy.world
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                16 hours ago

                Really? Are you really genuinely ignorant or you simply can’t fathom that non-US people not only exist but also lead happier lives?

                • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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                  16 hours ago

                  No, he’s not. He’s talking about supposedly-socialist people in the USA who idealize vaguely socialism related countries like Russia or China, and think they would have a better life in these countries.

                • argv minus one@mastodon.sdf.org
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                  16 hours ago

                  Please don’t forget that the vast majority of non-US people lead significantly sadder lives.

                  The two most populous countries in the world are China and India, in that order, and I haven’t heard many good things about the standard of living in either of them.

          • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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            15 hours ago

            Most of the world’s commies actually live in China, strangely enough.

    • boreengreen@lemm.ee
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      17 hours ago

      Linux, reddit bad, socialism and star trek are alright. The bean thing I don’t get. Never am I gonna spend energy learning about it either.

      • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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        17 hours ago

        The bean thing I don’t get

        I recall that being a thing on Reddit too for a bit… Just the internet doing its thing. People like random shit - it all gud.

    • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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      19 hours ago

      Bagging Reddit is actually kinda discouraged, more Linux and communism. Or at least screeching about capitalism at every opportunity.

      • TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
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        19 hours ago

        Yeah, for a website forged almost exclusively from former Redditors and especially ones who got burned by Reddit’s abysmal leadership, I rarely see complaints about Reddit on here – arguably far fewer than on Reddit itself.

        • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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          19 hours ago

          The socialists are the native inhabitants of this land, the Redditors are the ruthless imperialist colonisers.

          • argv minus one@mastodon.sdf.org
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            15 hours ago

            This is a federated cross-platform social network (hi from Mastodon, by the way), not one platform operated by one person with one ideology. No one is native or a colonizer here; those concepts aren’t even meaningful here.

        • BalooWasWahoo@links.hackliberty.org
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          18 hours ago

          That’s been a welcome change in the last ~6 months. It was a fire hose blast of people going back and forth on whether a ‘thing’ was brought over from reddit, and whether or not it was welcome.

            • BalooWasWahoo@links.hackliberty.org
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              17 hours ago

              Oh, just insert whatever you remember from reddit. Replies that are obviously jokes but off topic, mimicking a meme or such; doing the ‘follow the link’ meme (though I only remember that one popping up once or twice); sounding out a sentence one word per reply… I saw all of those get panned or promoted. Some people screamed about leaving such habits at reddit, others thought they were the height of humor.

              • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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                16 hours ago

                There’s a lot of those jokes that will hopefully die on the platform. They had well and truly run their course even on Reddit.

        • the post of tom joad@sh.itjust.works
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          18 hours ago

          Lol since you mentioned you got banned i had a look… your comments were fuckin awful! Why world you advertise this? I’m absolutely embarrassed for ya… that you still feel this hurt when you got banned trollin.

          I went to some other comms to check their logs and it looks like you get banned everywhere you post, fella.

          Haha! nothing effin funnier than reading the hurt feelings of someone who got what they deserved.

          Thanks for that, really <3

          • ThirdWorldOrder@lemm.ee
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            18 hours ago

            Why not show my comments then lol

            Oh I see you’re a regular poster in USAauthoritarianism. 😂

            Glad you enjoy sniffing my taint. Come back anytime.

            • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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              15 hours ago

              If you had read your own sources then you would have posted the article you are quoting from now first. It’s weird that you assume someone will click on every link in your Wikipedia page. A war is not necessarily genocide. I think you have trouble with understanding what genocide is. You are simply grasping at straws. USA is now killing people in Gaza? So anyone who does business with United States is now USAs fault? “Death to America”? You’re calling for death to Americans while at the same time you are crying about genocide. You’re nothing but a clown. Also, you’re from Iowa lmao. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

              So for starters saying “a war is not necessarily a genocide” in response to an example of a genocidal act (America’s continued bombing of Japan after it served no valid military purpose) is genocide apologia.

              Secondly questioning the USA’s role in the ongoing genocide in Gaza when the genocide is being explicitly carried out with American bombs is also genocide apologia.

              Thirdly “Death to America” refers to the American political project, its imperialist ambitions and its global hegemony, not the mass killing of Americans that you seem to think it does, which is why saying “Death to America” is not a call to commit genocide and doesn’t make the person you were arguing with a hypocrite.

              • ThirdWorldOrder@lemm.ee
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                14 hours ago

                Thanks Marx (nice name lol)

                Your anecdotes are irrelevant. You could have just posted the context, but you didn’t. Wonder why?

                • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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                  14 hours ago

                  I’m a debate pervert but I’m not that dedicated to the bit. Searching your name in the modlog was all I was willing to do.

                  Anyway perhaps if you simply stopped apologizing for genocides, you would no longer be accused of genocide apologia? Just a suggestion.

          • ThirdWorldOrder@lemm.ee
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            18 hours ago

            I offended the fake commies with common sense. Rule 2 I’ve been told is something like don’t say anything negative about China. As for the other bans they were celebrating Israel hostages getting killed so I had a few words. That’s not even close to all my bans but you get the idea.

            As I’ve said before, these fake communists would not make good comrades because they have really thin skin. It’s just a giant circle jerk for them.

    • f314@lemmy.world
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      12 hours ago

      I mean, Linux (and the entire ecosystem) is a fundamentally socialist concept.

      • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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        I would say GNU is one that’s openly socialist. If Linux’s (or rather, Linus Torvald’s) philosophy is socialist, they either do a very good job of hiding the fact or there is a lot I don’t know about them.

        • frezik@midwest.social
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          Unpopular opinion: “Open Source”, spawned from Netscape spinning off Mozilla, laid out in definition by the OSI organization, and advocated for by AnCaps like Eric S. Raymond, was always fundamentally capitalist. Devs spending a lot of free time doing free work for companies was not an accident. Capitalists borrowing ideas from the left and twisting them for their own uses is not new, either.

          Free Software is more rooted in communism. You’re doing this to help your community. RMS might have always denied it–probably because it wasn’t a good idea to advocate that way during the Cold War and after–but it’s a better philosophical fit.

          It’s past time to divorce the two.

          • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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            2 hours ago

            There are discussions about open vs. free going back over 20 years, that I know of. The divorce happened long ago, but they’re still neighbors.

            • frezik@midwest.social
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              1 hour ago

              Those discussions largely resulted in “FOSS”, and a basic peace treaty. The two tended to use the same techniques and licenses in practice, and nobody really wanted to have that fight.

          • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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            3 hours ago

            That doesn’t make him a socialist. He doesn’t espouse any of the core socialist beliefs there. He’s just saying he’s a “woke communist” (as described by the right), which could mean anything from a centre-left liberal to a Marxist.

        • uis@lemm.ee
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          11 hours ago

          Wasn’t Torvalds’ dad member of communist party?

          • frezik@midwest.social
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            Yes, and was a member of the EU parliament until recently. Both his parents were pretty radical. Linus tends to keep his politics private for the most part.

          • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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            3 hours ago

            Maybe so, but children don’t always adopt the ideology of their parents. They usually do, but not always.

  • qooqie@lemmy.world
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    19 hours ago

    I realize we’re inherently not capitalistic platform because everyone has the access to own their portion. Pretty cool imo and not to toot the horn for the millionth time, it definitely seems like the future of the internet

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            11 hours ago

            deep breath So I’m not the most star trek nerd by any measure, but I grew up watching the next generation (TNG), but also some of the original star trek series. And then deep space 9 (DS9) and enterprise. Also the one with the one which is not the enterprise and they got lost (forgot the name). But I’ve lost interest with the recent series. So not a uber nerd but I’ve watched quite a bit.

            I think starting with the MOVIES of the first series is good. But also starting with the series of TNG is ok.

          • AccountMaker@slrpnk.net
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            7 hours ago

            I literally started due to lemmy posts. I just went in order and watched TOS and TNG. Now I’m going through DS9. I’m really glad I did, because it’s amazing!

          • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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            As others have said, DS9, Lower Decks, TNG, Voyager, are all great choices. Strange New Worlds isn’t bad either.

            Now some potential dealbreakers: Lower Decks is a cartoon and heavily references other shows (but does explain most of those references), TNG is very libbed up and side-steps a lot of the moral questions Startrek is known for, Voy solves those questions with warcrimes, SNW tries to be too inoffensive and is very much directed at fans. I can’t think of anything bad to say about DS9.

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    11 hours ago

    My partner has been insinuating that I’m a communist recently. I don’t think I’m a communist, I simply want to seize the means of production for the people.

    • Letsdothis@lemmy.world
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      3 hours ago

      It’s part of the plan. To get people to accept a perspective before learning from where one has to stand to have such a perspective.

      Something that can’t be denied is that there are bad actors in America who actively want the downfall of America. These groups look to the future and determine what will harm America in critical aspects. These groups (sometimes actively funded by other nations) arent actively seeking uprising or revolt this year, or next year, but maybe by the end of the decade, or maybe the next decade.

      These malevolent forces at work arent readily apparent. One of these goals is division. “Divide and conquer.” I don’t believe it’s completely by accident that politics are so divisive right now.

      I’m not that old, but I remember a time when people wouldn’t generalize and stereotype each other based on political leanings.

      We again need to prioritize love for each other over political standings.

    • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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      17 hours ago

      I want to seize the means of production as much as the next guy but it gets kinda boring after a while if that’s the only content available

    • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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      16 hours ago

      I’m just sick of the fucking tankies telling me World War 3 will finally give us workers rights.

      • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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        14 hours ago

        They claim both sides are equally as bad while ignoring the fact that their side has never even been tested. Therefore they have no fucking clue that they wouldn’t be worse.

        Shill Stein has already been outed, West is an incompetent blowhard and only shows up ever four years to suggest impractical and irrelevant nonsense,

        And JFK….

        The Green Party is essential a giant spoiler campaign.

          • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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            I don’t think there are real communists honestly. I don’t think communism is ever really a “viable” solution unless you suppress freedoms. Also someone will always rise to the top. Communism is just one big corporation that you can not leave.

            • NateNate60@lemmy.worldOP
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              12 hours ago

              At the risk of starting another argument, I have heard it described thusly—

              Suppose you have some number of apples and some number of people who want the apples.

              • Capitalism is where one person owns all the apples and everyone has to work for them to get an apple.
              • Socialism is where the apples are distributed evenly to all the people who want them.
              • Communism is where unlimited apples fall out of the sky and everyone can have as many as they need.

              Now, this quote was originally used by capitalists to mock communism, but I think it’s really not a bad analogy. Think about it: Star Trek, another beloved Lemmy staple, takes place in a communist society. Everyone works whatever job they want contributing to society and in return, everyone gets whatever they need provided for by the state. It’s not truly post scarcity, since human greed always outstrips any finite amount of resources. But there is no distinction of rich or poor in Star Trek. People are judged by their intelligence, skill, and merit, and rewarded proportionally. At the same time, there is no concept of money, mostly (except when the plot needs it). What good is money when all your necessities are taken care of? All but your wildest desires can be conjured up at a snap of your fingers, and all the state asks in return is that you do what you can to contribute. It is a mutually beneficial relationship that most people have learned to be content with. That, my friends, is an ideal depiction of communism.

              • Dragon "Rider"(drag)@lemmy.nz
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                10 hours ago
                • Capitalism is where one person owns all the copies of Tommy Wiseau’s The Room
                • Socialism is where the copies of Tommy Wiseau’s The Room are distributed evenly to all the people who want them
                • Communism is where a transgender furry breaks the DRM on the DVD and publishes a torrent of Tommy Wiseau’s The Room
              • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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                4 hours ago

                I think the Star Trek ideal is not viable in the least as people will always be self centered. They will either seek either to make there own lives better or to make there families lives better. Also Star Trek changes its narrative depending on the movie or series.

                • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net
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                  1 hour ago

                  I don’t think humans would be naturally self centered if they lived in an environment that actually encouraged sharing and cooperation instead of actively encouraging and rewarding psychopathy and selfishness.

                  There were likely people who thought it impossible that wolves would someday become domesticated, and eventually be our best buds, due to their ‘unchangeable’ nature.

                  We are all products of our environment.

            • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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              8 hours ago

              I think a public production and distribution of goods can be handled democratically which will eventually happen organically with a strong and adaptable democracy, furthermore I agree any other form of Communism such as the CCP is just malarkey.

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            15 hours ago

            Accuracy of your definition aside, you should realize that they’re not the ones cheering for World War 3, it’s the people who want to invade Iran who are doing that.

            • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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              15 hours ago

              Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet, the Phillippines, Crimea, and Ukraine (just to name some ongoing conflicts)

              But sure, its all the west with their “mutual defence pacts” and their “incentivizing diplomacy through trade”, Those beligerent bastards.

              Also, though, whataboutism in the face of their dogshit ideology.

              • Dragon "Rider"(drag)@lemmy.nz
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                10 hours ago

                Drag isn’t a tankie, and drag wants Ukrainian troops to march on Moscow because Putin is a fuckhead and drag wants to see the fall of the Russian empire

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                14 hours ago

                Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet, the Phillippines, Crimea, and Ukraine

                What world do you live in? Hong Kong had some protests four years ago, Taiwan has never had anything happen and nothing appears to be about to happen, Tibet is a conflict that was resolved seventy years ago, and The Phillipines is some boats ramming each other (which isn’t good don’t get me wrong, but it’s hardly a military conflict). You might as well say that Atlanta is an ongoing conflict because it’s still occupied by the Union!

                Crimea/Ukraine is the only thing that’s a military conflict that you mentioned, and the people actively escalating it and sabotaging peace talks with regards to it are the western countries.

            • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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              14 hours ago

              I don’t think you’ll find too many bOtH siDEs accelerationists among the liberals, but don’t let this get in the way of some good ol’ fashioned uninformed ignorance!

              • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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                14 hours ago

                The both sides people are accurately pointing out that both sides of the American monoparty are equally accelerationist in terms of their foreign policy. They are both pro genocide, they both want to saber rattle at America’s perceived enemies, they can both potentially start world war 3 - and we’re against that happening.

        • WillStealYourUsername@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          I mean that’s why they are called tankies :P It’s a derogatory word originally used to describe “socialists” defending tanks being sent into ukraine by the soviet union, and then was quickly used to describe all “socialists” defending genocide, imperialism, and authoritarianism.

    • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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      15 hours ago

      Nine times out of ten it’s incorrectly defined by idealists that haven’t figured out that a fair amount of American sociological and economic standards are already steeped in socialist services, and the rest of the rhetoric that defines socialism would absolutely fail if attempted in America.

      In short, nine times out of ten, a socialist has absolutely no fucking idea what they’re talking about, but just parroting smug bullshit that they think makes them look edgy and educated.

      • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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        a fair amount of American sociological and economic standards are already steeped in socialist services

        If you believe this to be true then you don’t understand what socialism actually is. You seem to be of the mind that any publicly funded service or welfare is socialist, and I don’t blame you for thinking this since it is what the mainstream American political discourse would have you believe.

        In short, nine times out of ten, a socialist has absolutely no fucking idea what they’re talking about, but just parroting smug bullshit that they think makes them look edgy and educated.

        When you say this immediately after demonstrating that you actually have no idea what you’re talking about it’s a pretty bad look. People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

      • Dragon "Rider"(drag)@lemmy.nz
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        10 hours ago

        Drag thinks the means of production should be owned by the workers. Drag is curious why you think the American workers own “a fair amount” of the means of production.

    • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      15 hours ago

      socialism itself is just, kinda weird. From a philosophical perspective it makes sense and has clear distinctions. But from a practical view it’s just sort of. Capitalism but if it was more confusing for some reason. If you go too far into one direction, it’s just communism, and that’s not socialism, obviously. The other direction and it’s literally just capitalism, so it has to sit in this weird space between where you can’t engage with the best parts of capitalism (or it just weirdly handicaps parts of capitalism) and communism.

      and then of course you’ve got people (probably grifters) like hasan piker who claim to be socialist while having millions of dollars, but doing literally nothing with it, because investing it wouldn’t be socialist, and you can’t really just give it away, because well, it’s a lot of money. I mean you could, but it’s also just, sort of redundant at that point.

      Realistically he should be investing that money into a lot of different things, increasing returns on revenues, and creating a content creator collective or something silly like that, but to my knowledge he hasn’t probably because he’s either stupid or lazy. I don’t blame him for either of those things though.

      socialism, particularly modern western socialism that’s based on capital needs a fundamental proof of concept work-through before we can really do anything with it, i think.

      Capitalism, while it has problems, it at least makes sense on a fundamental human perspective. I own things, you own things, we own things, that also applies to capital as well. It’s so fundamentally tied to the human experience and history that it’s just sort of hard to deviate from. Even china does a lot of capitalism.

      man that was much longer than i anticipated. Apologies in retrospective lol.

      Anyway for the second part of the admittedly very old and dead joke by this point in the post. It’s a meme about socialism on the internet. (particularly a farther left space on the internet)

      • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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        15 hours ago

        The confusion stems from the fact that you seem not to know what you’re talking about. Like at all.

        If you go too far into one direction, it’s just communism

        This is a misunderstanding so fundamental that it’s a completely beaten dead horse of a joke.

        • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          15 hours ago

          i’ve seen socialism defined as anything from early USSR under lenin, to capitalism but if private ownership of capital isn’t a thing anymore.

          It’s incredibly broad depending on how you want to apply it. And technically, communism is actually a subset of socialism.

          Capitalism is likewise pretty broad as well, but generally the ownership of capital is traceable and has some form of root ownership. Even things like stocks still have clearly defined ownership. Loans are weird, but the ownership there is clearly defined.

          Under socialism loans may not even be possible, depending on how aggressive with it you are. Unless you lent to a third party, like a separate state/country i guess.

          IDK what definition you’re working with here, but there isn’t much flexibility allowing you very much room to differentiate it here. I’m really not sure how you’re going to work out of this one to be honest.

          Like philosophically, socialism is theoretically simple. it’s the implementation that’s hard. The idea is pretty simple, it’s the concept that there is no singular ownership, but collective ownership. You could define this as something like “anybody who has any investment in any product/good or service has ownership” but this gets sort of confusing. If i buy product from the goods company, does that mean i now own a “share” of the goods company? If i can, does this mean buying literal shares of the company would be “negative” shares? Or is this backwards, buying product produces a negative share, while investing provides a positive share. Does this influence the “shares” of the employees of the company? Are these the same shares? Can i simply out own the shares of any employee with (literal) capital? Or is buying product not applicable in this scenario. That seems reasonable to me, so we’ll omit that.

          Where does currency even come from? The government? The global trade market? Who owns that? Since the money is in my possession, and it’s doing work for me, i must own it, at least partially, but it’s also capable of doing work for others, so do other people also own a part of the capital that i hold? That would be weird so let’s simply ascribe capital as a means of temporarily holding “schizo” capital.

          so now we have a socialist society, that has private capital, and relatively isolated businesses. The employees own a share of the business. We still havent determined how that’s proportioned. But we can assume they do, so we have a relatively capitalist market, as that’s generally how a market is going to work most effectively (also that would literally just be communism at that point), unless you are either god, or the worlds most powerful supercomputer that can simply predict the needs of a market at a whim. Or you just allow no flexibility in the market (surely this won’t cause problems) with companies that don’t have direct ownership, which is not dissimilar to how the silicon valley works, minus the VC funding.

          So we’ve basically just created capitalism, but different. Not that this is a bad thing. It’s just, an odd problem.

          At the end of the day, it’s either going to approach communism, or capitalism, there is no distinct mechanism of socialism. I generally refer to this as an “approaching zero problem” as it has no clear definition, and if you go far enough you’re just going to end up back where you started, one way or the other.

          • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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            14 hours ago

            So I guess the problem is that socialism and communism are kinda used in two different ways. One way refers to a political program, the other refers to a hypothetical stage of economic development.

            The political programs are more clearly defined. Socialism is an umbrella term for a lot of specific anticapitalist political programs, of which one calls itself Communism. Communism is for people who like the Soviet Union and China, but there’s basically no smoke in that ideology in western countries, where Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are your biggest left wing contenders.

            But “socialism” and “communism” as stages of economic development are moving targets, impossible to pin down because they’re entirely hypothetical and there are only a couple countries that have even tried to achieve them. Was the Soviet Union communist? Well, it was lead by Communists in the political program sense, but I don’t think anyone would argue that it achieved communism in the economic and social development sense. Modern day China, too, is Communist in the political sense, but even by their own metrics they are still capitalist, and see socialism as a goal they are working towards (if you believe their rhetoric and don’t think it’s all just cynical, which many western socialists do).

            So while the Chinese Communists have their own definition of practical socialism, western leftists are not in power and all of our ideas remain purely theoretical as a result. Add to this the fact that there is no major leftist political org in western countries for the socialists to rally around and you get more definitions of socialism and communism (the stages of economic development) than you can shake a stick at. This leads to the problem you’re describing, where socialism appears to have no solid meaning at all, because the notion of it is so phantasmal.

            But I don’t think that you can dismiss socialism or its results as “capitalism, but different,” because the whole thing about socialism is that new power structures create new incentive structures and therefore even if there are some superficial elements of capitalism that remain - like the use of currency - under a socialist regime the outcomes should be more equal, fair, and democratic. There are numerous historical examples of these better alternative outcomes, but of course they’ve all been relentlessly propagandized against in Western countries so that the average person doesn’t realize that there is a better way to run society than the one they were born into.

          • Dragon "Rider"(drag)@lemmy.nz
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            10 hours ago

            capitalism but if private ownership of capital isn’t a thing anymore.

            Drag has never heard of that. Then again, drag has never heard of wet deserts or bland spices either.

        • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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          14 hours ago

          It makes perfect sense if you understand how nuance works. But I think there is where the problem lies- YOUR confusion stems from your inability to understand it.

          • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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            14 hours ago

            It makes perfect sense if you understand how nuance works.

            Saying “if you do too much socialism, it’s communism” is exactly the opposite of a nuanced understanding. Please read a pamphlet.

            • Soup@lemmy.cafe
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              12 hours ago

              They’re not wrong. And I’m not going to apologize for not feeling like explaining it to you, but I’ll advise that you start by learning what nuance actually means.

              • SSJMarx@lemm.ee
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                14 hours ago

                This is one of the most inane threads I’ve ever seen on Lemmy. Nuance is having a fine understanding of a topic, while the line I’m quoting is taking a complicated topic and boiling it down to a truism. It’s the most obvious and classic form of anti-intellectualism and it certainly does not reflect a nuanced understanding of socialism or communism.

            • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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              4 hours ago

              It is certainly not without historical precedent. Anarchists were quite heavily involved with the Russian revolution for example, although many historical-revisionist marxist-leninists would prefer to downplay that.

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                4 hours ago

                MLs don’t downplay the participation of Anarchists in the Russian Revolution, at least not from what I have seen.

                • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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                  3 hours ago

                  I appreciate that you don’t, I even have you tagged as “a polite marxist” so I must have had a positive interaction with you before, but many MLs I’ve debated before have downplayed anarchist contributions to the Russian revolution. I can understand how you might not encounter that very often since you’re not putting yourself out there as an anarchist.

                • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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                  3 hours ago

                  Point taken, but although it may not have ended well for the anarchists I believe their involvement in the Russian revolution was for the better since it could easily have gone in a much worse direction without them. Anarchists are always putting themselves in harm’s way to make this world a better place.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              4 hours ago

              Ask the Anarchists on Hexbear why they’re fine with Marxists.

              In my experience, Hexbear is a much less toxic instance due to the anti-sectarian rules. Someone described it as “less like a Communist Party and more like the bar Communists hang out at after the meeting,” which is both cute and accurate. It’s a nice atmosphere if you aren’t a liberal.

              • WillStealYourUsername@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                4 hours ago

                It’s a nice atmosphere if you aren’t a liberal.

                Doesn’t sound like it would have a nice atmosphere for socialists or anarchists either

                Edit: Also that place allows coordinated attacks against non-tankies, and the most troubling users from blåhaj ran to that place, so I’m not super impressed.

                • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                  4 hours ago

                  Doesn’t sound like it would have a nice atmosphere for socialists or anarchists either

                  Like I said, you can ask the anarchists and socialists there yourself. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, it’s a nice atmosphere, and I get along with the Anarchists there as well.

                  Edit: Also that place allows coordinated attacks against non-tankies, and the most troubling users from blåhaj ran to that place, so I’m not super impressed.

                  Mind explaining what you mean by “coordinated attacks?” And what do you mean by “troubling users from blåhaj?” People leaving one instance for Hexbear isn’t necessarily indicative of Hexbear being bad.

    • laranis@lemmy.zip
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      7 hours ago

      Half socialism, half complaining about capitalism, half linux, and half startrek memes.

      Although, now that I think about it, the linux and startrek halves are often just a part of the socialism half.

      So, I guess the original point stands. Socialism all the way down.

    • dubious@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      at the end of the day, it’s all complaining and no action. i get so tired of hearing children whine and doing nothing about anything.

        • dubious@lemmy.world
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          3 hours ago

          that seems about as useless as bitching online about it.

          the system grinds down opposition. change from within is near impossible.

          • StinkySocialist@lemmy.ml
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            3 hours ago

            You’re right they shouldn’t even try and they should also feel bad for not trying. Let’s all be sad defeatists… Lol jk no thanks dude

  • buzz86us@lemmy.world
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    3 hours ago

    I just hate how it is vilified when we literally freely give billions in taxpayer monies to oil companies.