Lemmy’s design is focused on quality content by ditching the Karma farmers and addicts. No more chasing upvotes—people here actually focus on real value instead of feeding the ego.

  • Bonus @lemm.ee
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    9 hours ago

    Can’t say I ever cared about karma. Lemmy reminds me of stripped down original reddit. Almost original. I remember when Reddit didn’t even have thumbnails. Back then, there was a thing called memepool. You didn’t know what you were going to get when you clicked on links on either site. There was a lot of fun unpredictable content and Reddit still meant you read it and we’re vouching for it. It was like this whole world of quality stuff from really smart people. Thumbnails and subreddits ushered in a series of trashings and lead to intense divisiveness reddit never recovered from. . .

  • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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    11 hours ago

    Visible post and comment scores are still going to produce some of this behavior. You may not have a total karma but people will still get dopamine from seeing their posts getting upvotes and be reinforced in doing the same again. So the same mechanisms of social pressure and uniformisation are at play. The worst being when people delete their minority opinion comments because of the downvote pressure.

      • naught101@lemmy.world
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        10 hours ago

        Maybe. They might also mean you’re an idiot.

        Slashdot used to have a multidimensional voting system that would allow you to up or down vote something based on whether it was funny/insightful/correct, etc (can’t remember the dimension). I wish we had something like that. Sometimes it would be useful to mark a comment as “funny, but also wrong”

        • schizo@forum.uncomfortable.business
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          8 hours ago

          I had a discussion about using the Slashdot style voting rather than the Reddit style.

          It not only has the additional tag, it has the max “upvote” display limit of 5, and the display code will expand and promote the best rated comments, while hiding the garbage.

          I think comments on most forums would benefit from there being no ‘big upvote’ number to chase, as well as making the highest rated comments in a thread of say, 200, more obvious.

          • naught101@lemmy.world
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            48 minutes ago

            Right, thanks. Still a super useful system, IMO, though I’m sure better versions are possible.

        • errer@lemmy.world
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          9 hours ago

          I turn my phone sideways and then my upvote is in a different dimension.

        • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
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          8 hours ago

          Maybe. They might also mean you’re an idiot.

          If I am wrong sombody will generally probide a rebuttal tho but deff happens

      • DashboTreeFrog@discuss.online
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        10 hours ago

        Genuinely curious, does that mean that, for you, getting downvoted gives you dopamine/a sense of accomplishment?

        Your above comment is in the negative when I’m making this comment. Does that feel good? Again, genuinely curious, hard to put a non-judgemental tone in writing.

        I can’t relate to that feeling, upvotes and downvotes to me show how much a community agrees or disagrees with what I’ve said. Either what I said isn’t right for the community I posted it in or maybe just a generally unpopular opinion if I’m getting downvotes. Might make me reflect but usually no big deal, I’m mostly here for the discussions, memes and current events. Outside of trolling I don’t really see how getting downvoted might be seen as a good thing by a poster.

        • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
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          8 hours ago

          If people down vote but are unable to provide a coherent rebuttal, that means that they are rage down voting.

          • DashboTreeFrog@discuss.online
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            7 hours ago

            I guess getting people to rage can feel validating, knowing that I’ve made someone rage quit a game feels satisfying for sure.

            I don’t personally feel that way about sites like Lemmy/Reddit/Social-media in general where things are more discussion and social-interaction based though. I guess for my kind of discourse goals, if I’ve made someone angry rather than laugh or understand my perspective, I’ve done a bad job.

          • Fushuan [he/him]@lemm.ee
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            3 hours ago

            Not necessarily, I usually downvote comments where there are enough rebuttal replies but I still disagree heavily with what’s being said. I am able to provide the Nth coherent rebuttal but I’m just either lazy or I don’t want to contribute to the spam.

    • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      8 hours ago

      Yeah, lemmy suffers a lot of from this. Too many posts that try to just make the front page, too many popular communities that dominate c/all. I’ve even had a friend quit over this.

      I genuinely miss communities about games, linguistics and niche hobbies - they just aren’t as popular as news/politics/general memes and that. I do try to post them as much as i can, but since they’re niche there’s only so much content you can find.

      I’d love for the frontpage to have some [optional, ofc] changes that encourage more of this type of content.

      • AugustWest@lemm.ee
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        8 hours ago

        Why would anyone be on all? Even with reddit I I quit going to all probably 10 years ago…

        And don’t let my Lemmy age fool you, I drop my account every 6 to 8 months. It took my a lot longer to figure that out on reddit.

        • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 hours ago

          For me it’s to find new content (i block most news/politics communities since they’re most of c/all) but there’s a lot of attention and eyes to be gained from all.

          But most of this, as i said; is buried by the generic popular content.

        • burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world
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          3 hours ago

          maybe my definitions of healthy and active are extremely biased, but these communities have several days-old posts with low numbers of comments and limited reply threads. not only that, but there’s lots of news articles about the industry but not much stuff about GAMES, be that random reviews, discussions, or memes.

          • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
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            2 hours ago

            Well it’s partly my bias too, because when I joined Lemmy about 3 years ago, lemmy.world didn’t exist yet and there were around a couple dozen new posts on All of Lemmy per day at the time.

            I’m just really grateful for how much we’ve grown as a site, even if we’re still hardly anywhere close to the scale of modern corporate social media. But imo it doesn’t have to be, I like this.

          • JasSmith@sh.itjust.works
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            17 minutes ago

            Beehaw is quite toxic and for that reason, lemmy.world is not federated. I expect an angry swarm of people from Beehaw to send me death threats now to prove how untoxic they are.

      • RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world
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        4 hours ago

        Pretty much any game or random hobby I’m on at the moment, I could count on finding a decently populated and active Subreddit. This is what’s missing from Lemmy.

      • Pregnenolone@lemmy.world
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        1 hour ago

        Yeah, but in this day and age we’re going to grow with easy-to-consume content e.g. memes. Once growth hits a critical mass then the niche communities will come.

    • FrostBlazer@lemm.ee
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      5 hours ago

      With time we’ll get there! The more we slowly contribute to the niche topics, the more we’ll see these communities grow. I’m sure there are a sizable amount of people from Reddit looking for their niches on here to start growing more for them to fully hop over. I’ve got a good chunk of mine on Lemmy now, but still a handful of ones I haven’t found a comparable server for yet. If I understood running a server more I probably would have started a couple of my own for these topics.

      Is there anywhere on Lemmy people can request for servers to get started? I think that would be helpful to have since missing topics are some of the barriers of entry for some people.

    • AugustWest@lemm.ee
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      8 hours ago

      Blocked? Why? If you don’t want to see them why are you subscribed to them?

      I mean if you want niche communities you create them and subscribe to them right?

      • MHLoppy@fedia.io
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        6 hours ago

        Browsing the global/all feed is one way to find new communities, and some people just like using it in general rather than defaulting to a subs-only view.

        • AugustWest@lemm.ee
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          6 hours ago

          Seems like a not so good way to me, and thats why people are complaining.

          You can just look through the communities and sub to good ones.

          Maybe it would be helpful to use ALL with scaled sorting. It boosts smaller communities.

          I gave up using all on reddit a very long time ago, and Lemmy is basically the same… But at least on Lemmy you have scaled sorting to try and help.

          • BowtiesAreCool@lemmy.world
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            5 hours ago

            Or just…browse all and then block communities you don’t want to see. Most stuff I block is furry shit. Nothing against it, I just don’t want to see it.

          • MHLoppy@fedia.io
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            6 hours ago

            For what it’s worth I generally agree with you, and especially think the people who treat /all as their own personal feed are nuts, but nonetheless it’s something that some people do 🫠

            Everyone has their own preferences about how to use things!

      • RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world
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        4 hours ago

        I just see them in the Everything feed, and if I don’t block them, they seem to dominate. I’m not actually against them, but I don’t want my feed to be all memes.

  • cm0002@lemmy.world
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    11 hours ago

    There are upvotes and downvotes and they do have some use gauging that content IMO

    That being said, without the corporate structure and profit motive to produce a monetizing algo that encourages others to game it to further their own monetizing goals…it’s SIGNIFICANTLY better

    Up/Down votes aren’t inherently bad, Reddit and other corporate platforms corrupt it with their profit chasing

    • Pregnenolone@lemmy.world
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      1 hour ago

      Well, I kind of disagree with the up/down votes being inherently bad, as they more front-load early posting rather than accurate posting. Meaning early engagement is likely to have higher upvotes rather than engagement which is factual and well thought out. This incentivizes much more emotional and meme posting.

      I’ve seen it happen time and time again on Reddit and even here: someone makes post, bunch of people react only to the headline, or spread misinformation, and by the time nuanced posts and thought out posts are made, engagement has plummeted and people have moved on to the next thing.

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    10 hours ago

    I wish that commenting would automatically upvote a post. It’s far too late to fix the use of an upvote as approval of subject discussion and not just an agree arrow, but I often…no, I almost always forget to upvote the initial topic even after leaving a few paragraphs. One would hope whatever algorithm is used also considers activity and number of comments in a rating or suggesting it to others.

    • Skavau@lemm.ee
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      10 hours ago

      Yeah, I often just forget to upvote generally. Although this could lead to argumentative posters making troll posts, getting engagement and trending just because people reply to them.

    • naught101@lemmy.world
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      10 hours ago

      There ate multiple algorithms, but I don’t think any of them account for both votes and comments… I might be wrong though.

      Tangent: the "scaled* algorithm, which normalises post ranks by the popularity of the community they’re posted to, is excellent. I recommend everyone use it as their default.

      • JacksonLamb@lemmy.world
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        4 hours ago

        Kbin didn’t federate downvotes which was pretty funny. No one from it knew when they were being downvoted by lemmy.

  • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
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    5 hours ago

    Lemmy is small enough, that without even seeing a karma total, some users have an unofficial “rapport”, where I’ve seen them around enough to recognize whether they are the type to go against the grain, a perpetual troll, or a usually reasonable person with an unusually spicy take.

  • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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    11 hours ago

    I don’t get the karma hangup thing. Like… Lemmy does have Karma, but we just don’t culturally make it a priority.

    • Witty Computer@feddit.orgOP
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      10 hours ago

      The fact that it’s not designed to notify you every time you get 5 upvotes changes the game. Also low Karma accounts can post in Lemmy as opposed to Reddit.

      • catloaf@lemm.ee
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        10 hours ago

        low Karma accounts can post in Lemmy as opposed to Reddit

        But should they?

        One of the things I miss about reddit (and slashdot before that) was that if you got downvoted/downmodded a lot in a short amount of time, it would tell you to slow down (, cowboy). It helped to limit the damage when someone would go on a troll spree before they got banned.

        Some subreddits did implement a “you must have x karma to post” rule, or account age, which I wasn’t always a fan of, especially if it was karma within a certain subreddit. I understand the logic, that it was intended to make people read the community before posting, but I’m not sure if it hit the mark. But it did limit brand-new spam accounts, which are already here on lemmy.

        • Banana@sh.itjust.works
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          10 hours ago

          I do like the slow down, cowboy think and I’m pretty sure reddit had that extremely early on as well

        • Witty Computer@feddit.orgOP
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          10 hours ago

          I believe it’s an unhealthy habit, silencing unpopular people. Some of us low profile oddballs like to share our thoughts too

          • naught101@lemmy.world
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            10 hours ago

            That’s true, but it’s gotta be balanced by limiting the fallout of extreme cases on other users

        • gedaliyah@lemmy.world
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          10 hours ago

          Some communities use a “santabot” to auto-ban accounts with more downvotes than upvotes. I’ve never seen it happen to someone who didn’t deserve it.

      • gedaliyah@lemmy.world
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        10 hours ago

        Exactly - Reddit specifically and intentionally uses dark patterns to reinforce the importance of karma at every turn. The first interaction that someone has with Reddit is usually “you don’t have enough karma to post/comment/vote in this subreddit.” There are secret communities and public awards for high karma earners. There is a frontpage dedicated to rapid karma-earning posts. There is no disincentive for karma farming reposts, and subreddits are actually punished for reducing reposts. Karma is commoditized.

        Here the votes still matter, but the algorithm is public and users can and do sort in a variety of ways to discover new and relevant content. There is no single “front-page”

        • Skavau@lemm.ee
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          10 hours ago

          Unfortunately, on reddit - when subreddits restrict new posters or low karma commenters, they’re just trying to mitigate the impact of trolls and bots and people making new accounts. It’s not about being elitist.

          • MemmingenFan923@feddit.org
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            9 hours ago

            The karma restrictions seems at first a good idea but can be bypassed very easily. The bots steal older popular posts or pictures and repost them.

          • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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            10 hours ago

            Yeah because reddit (and Lemmy) are different to what a lot of people are used to. Users coming from things like tiktok or Facebook need to lurk a bit before posting so they get a feel for the culture.

            It is gatekeepy but its nessesary in my opinion. However I can see how the karma restrictions are super jarring for new users since it takes a while to get especially if your comments are always buried.

            • cyphear@lemm.ee
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              10 hours ago

              There used to be a saying on early image boards that have helped me more times than I can remember. “Lurk moar”, it has served me well. Even getting used to office culture. It helps to not make any faux pas that would make it harder to get along.

      • Skavau@lemm.ee
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        10 hours ago

        This may not be an inherently bad thing given that low karma accounts tend to be trolls.

            • lemmyingly@lemm.ee
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              2 hours ago

              I call that negative karma. Low karma is 0-200. 200 because that is a limit that at least some subs would use to limit new accounts from posting.

        • Kichae@lemmy.ca
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          9 hours ago

          I always like forum setups where you had limited posting privileges until you’d had a couple of posts. Usually, they’d have an introduction category where you could post, and then comment on some other users’ posts, to get your post or reputation count high enough to unlock the rest of the board.

          Most Lemmy sites are small enough to have a local introduction community or other ‘free’ communities for newbies to dip their toes and acclimate. They’d be good places to centralize posts on how all of this works, too.

          Wouldn’t scale to large servers, though.

        • gedaliyah@lemmy.world
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          10 hours ago

          Good moderation eliminates trolls pretty quickly. Admins are incentivized to respond to users’ concerns rather than a profit motive. Some communities do have a minimum account age for certain actions, and some instances require a real email address and IP address to join/participate.

          Trolls are bots are rare on Lemmy. They are the norm on reddit.

          • Skavau@lemm.ee
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            10 hours ago

            The traffic on Reddit is massive for highly populated subreddits. And these subreddits that restrict low karma account activities aren’t doing it for any profit motive.

            I understand Lemmy isn’t really big enough for this to be a concern here.

            • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              10 hours ago

              If/when it does get big enough, what would be a good solution? It would be possible to do the same as Reddit

      • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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        8 hours ago

        notify you every time you get 5 upvotes

        wat

        Is that a new thing? I’m pretty sure it didn’t do that before I left.

  • Allero@lemmy.today
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    3 hours ago

    Lemmy still relies on upvotes for ranking the feed, so, farming them makes sense, it’s just isolated per each post.

    And I believe the issue might get worse as Lemmy grows. The reason Reddit came up with karma and all that is because the more people you have on your platform, the more baddies you have to account for.

    For now, Lemmy is small enough for a basic interpersonal reputation to mostly just work, but as it grows, we need something else. Presumably, not karma.

    • ddash@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 hours ago

      Can you explain what you mean with farming upvotes makes sense? There is no part of the algorithm that takes into account how many upvotes the OP recently got, or is there?

      • gon [he]@lemm.ee
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        16 minutes ago

        I think they meant on a post-by-post basis. You can’t farm account karma, but you can farm upvotes on individual posts, for ego, I guess…

        There is the vibe-check on Lemmy, though. I don’t believe the algorithm takes that into account.

  • rglullis@communick.news
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    11 hours ago

    Ironically, this account’s bio and its history is screaming “I am a LLM posting a bunch of AI slop”.

      • rglullis@communick.news
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        11 hours ago

        Bio: “Your Digital Workshop. We build websites and host them, as well as create content for your social media.”

        Posts: all on a bunch of different communities. All of them short, just one or two sentences.

        • PlantJam@lemmy.world
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          11 hours ago

          Short comments scream human to me more than long comments. Like that guy who never posts any comments shorter than three paragraphs all perfectly formatted and punctuated.

          • rglullis@communick.news
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            11 hours ago

            Yeah, but the point is the consistency. It’s quite easy to prompt the model to just respond in always in the same way, and one could just say “you are supposed to talk like an average redditor. Keep it positive and short, and only elaborate if asked to.”

            • Aatube@kbin.melroy.org
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              10 hours ago

              By that point you may as well be an LLM. ChatGPT is pretty good at emulating writing styles.

              • rglullis@communick.news
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                9 hours ago
                1. My reddit account (with the same username) is 19 years old. This one was created in June of 2023, from even before the blackout. OP’s account is 17 days old.
                2. If you really care about it, I can arrange ways to prove that I am a real person - just get my matrix id here, and we could chat there if you want. Do you think that OP would accept such a request?
                3. Are you forgetting that some weeks ago there was some idiot around here telling how he wanted to get some LLM bots to post content and figure out if others would notice? Oh, and it’s not that it was a fully automated bot. The idea was to just post the content, but on accounts where he was supervising and could write as well.

                I stand by my opinion. OP’s playing y’all for fools and now we are all arguing pointlessly.

          • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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            8 hours ago

            Like that guy who never posts any comments shorter than three paragraphs all perfectly formatted and punctuated.

            'Sup.

            Yes, I realize this particular comment is somewhat self defeating and probably not a great example. But that’s not the point.

            The point is it’s apparently become my mission in life to annoy all the people on the internet who just check out any time they see a string of text that’s longer than 160 characters. I’ve been doing this since the early '90’s and you punks will never stop me.

            • PlantJam@lemmy.world
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              6 hours ago

              The user I’m thinking of has a cat themed username. They comment quite a bit, or at least they used to.

  • /home/pineapplelover@lemm.ee
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    8 hours ago

    I mean there are upvotes and downvotes so I don’t know what you mean. But there isn’t a real incentive to have lots of upvotes on here. I’m not even sure why karma farming even is a thing on reddit. Maybe cause you can sell the account to whatever guy wants to buy it?

    • 𝓔𝓶𝓶𝓲𝓮@lemm.ee
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      It’s because Reddit specifically optimizes the site so that upvotes give you the maximum dopamine and keep you hooked on it like a crack. Most corporate social media thrive on keeping their users hooked through cheap tricks.

      Lemmy Marxist Leninist Stalinist Maoist dev on the other hand doesn’t care or isn’t even able to do this because he doesn’t have an army of psychology experts to design it that way

      So no you don’t get anything out of karma but your brain thinks you do and every aspect of the site is built to maximise this. I hate it

  • SolarMonkey@slrpnk.net
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    1 hour ago

    Just don’t be a woman on Lemmy.

    Sure, most people won’t downvote or harass you just for being a woman (a lot will… we didn’t get the best of Reddit at all, and I doubt the new adoptees are any better…) but they will often enough make things difficult even if they aren’t actively causing problems.

    But men of Lemmy (aka the vast majority of the user base since they ran off all the womenfolk) don’t care. They see that as quality control or some dumb shit, because THEY aren’t interested in woman things, so nobody should be, or they think their “as a man” comments should be important or some shit… Whatever the post is about. If it doesn’t cater to them, it can fuck right off.

    Which is why cis women make up <10% of the Lemmy side of the fediverse. It’s a disaster for women here.

    But I wonder how long you’ve been here. Most of the posts of this nature are from very new accounts and they don’t know the problems yet…

    • amos@mander.xyz
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      52 minutes ago

      Is this really the case? I find this unexpected. Lemmy seems to be friendly to the LGBTQ people, namely trans.

      If what you say is true, we should probably address it somehow.

  • fyzzlefry@retrolemmy.com
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    10 hours ago

    Shit, I’m sorry. I had close to 1m before I bailed. It was all quality comment karma though. I just have no life.